marriage counseling, sexuality, past abuse and a whole lot of other "baggage"

In My Humble Opinion
1

Tomorrow I will be starting my second round of sessions with the third therapist regarding my marriage. The first attempt at counseling was before we were married. The therapist was a little out there and we didn’t get much out of it. We went for a couple months maybe more and quit. The second therapist was better and seemed to help, but we were back to our “old ways” in not too long of a time. Both of these were before we had any kids and were at my wife’s initiation.

The second therapist was very good and I liked her (they’ve all been women coincidentally). She was making a strong attempt for my wife to deal with an abusive relationship she has as a teenager. She was 15 and dated a “man” of 19 who, while I do not know and do not want to know all the details, it seems committed what is at least some kind of sexual assault and at worst rape over the one year length of the “relationship”. I thought this was the “meat” of her troubles.

During the last group of sessions with the third therapist I really pushed at my wife because I thought there was something more she hadn’t talked about before. I was correct, most unfortunately. A few years before her first boyfriend mentioned above while staying over at her grandmother’s, she was awakened by hands all over her. She didn’t scream or yell or otherwise cause a commotion but fought the person off and he left after a few minutes. Touching was the limit of the activity, I think.
After a few more relationships of varying degrees of health, we met, moved in together, got married and lived happily ever after.

At least, I believe we certainly appear to be happy. Our neighbors, family and friends I wouldn’t think could guess the depths of the hostility that exists between us.

OK, a little about me. My sexual experiences, excepting a couple strippers in clubs, have been with my wife. I have no idea what a more healthy relationship is like because I’ve never had one. A relationship of any kind, that is. I spend way too much time looking at internet porn because there’s no sex. Wait, that’s disingenuous of me. I do not look at porn because there’s no sex; it’s probably truer the other way around. It’s just that with the internet, porn’s so much easier to get at. While I’ve never been the victim of any abuse, I’ve also never had a mature attitude about sex. I don’t know how to grow up in that respect either. I believe that I think and feel about sex the same way now that I did at 13, more than 20 years ago.

And what appears to have been what I just recently realized as the real biggie: even after hearing about her awful experience of being awakened and groped, I sometimes, while asleep, do the same thing. I grab her. I go for the titties, and I say things, she’s never repeated what, but I can only imagine. Look at the window titles on your average free porn page and I would assume you’d read what I’d been saying.

And this is what really brought the house down the other day. Here I thought I was a sensitive caring husband who was dealing with a wife who couldn’t deal with a relationship due to past abuse, when in fact I would say I have been hindering her progress in dealing with her past abuse due to my own inadequacies, failures, and sexual immaturity.

It all came to a head late last week when we were arguing and she told me that she would be better off without me. And that’s a direct quote. She was angry that I was after to her to make an appointment with the therapist when it was me who had the real problem.

We can’t have a conversation about anything because we get aggravated with each other. I get defensive; all I hear from her is criticism or commands. The kids have been sick it seems like forever and they can’t deal with me they have to have mommy. She gets worn out. Things are awful, I would like them to get better, and I just don’t know exactly how they can get better.

I think that in some ways she could be right. She might be better off without me. I don’t know what kind of man she’d be with (if any). I don’t know how else to act. But I also really REALLY REALLY think that she is ignoring her own part in our problems because she doesn’t want to deal with it. I think that our problems will never go away until both of us can confront our demons and, what, set them free? Lock them up? Put them in pretty dresses and have tea parties? I don’t know what the other end of this journey will look like, but this time I think it will be a long one and I want to stay on it and I do not want to be alone.

I don’t expect a lot of, or any, replies to this incredibly long post, but I think I feel better putting all this down. Maybe I’ll print it out and take it with me tomorrow? I will of course gladly accept any suggestions or comments; perhaps someone else has been able to work through some stuff like this? An inspiring story would certainly be, well, inspiring. Knowing that someone somewhere was able to struggle through a fucked up situation would help make me feel like I wasn’t wasting my time.

2

OK, I meant to preview that, but I wrote the thing offline and just cliked the ol’ submit button to quick. I reserve the right to be horribly embarrassed if I said something wrong.

And another detail. Part of the reason that our relationship gets better and slides back to the “old ways”, (extremely IMHO here), is that my wife has the incredibly fragile sense of…something. I don’t what it is. She is appalled at most displays of affection from TV shows and she really hates the current young women’s fashions. Hoo-boy! Couple this attitude with my unhealthy interest in porn and one time I get caught (I told you guys I really struggle with this…) or if she things she caught me, bang, all bets are off, back to square one. She is very sensitive about being objectified or used, and that’s all she can see in any porn. I thihk this definitely ties back to her past abuse experiences. I don’t think this is exactly fair, but them I’m the one who fucks up. I guess. I think, well, I call it “I know”, that there are other attitudes out there about sex, about porn, and I don’t think I should have to do all the changing (and this is the thing I really have begun to feel chafing). I’m the one with the problem, I’m the one who wants to have sex more often (well, at all at this point), I’m the one who has to change.

:frustrated yet feeling impotentt change anything emoticon:

Thanks for letting me vent. This is the first time I’ve really tried to order my thought about this, and I think I’ve done a pretty good job of it. For me, at least, my thoughts typically come in a jumbled, messy rush. And I’m a shitty typist.

3

DT2, first, unless you’re looking at kiddie, bestial, or rape porn, your interest in porn is probably not unhealthy. However, it is a detriment to your relationship with your wife because of what your wife has gone through. So don’t feel guilty about it, but understand that for the sake of your marriage, you may need to put it aside until your wife has healed.

Second, it sounds like you and your wife both have your share of problems. Maybe marriage counseling isn’t going to help much right now. Maybe the both of you need one-on-one counseling and then at a later time you can pick up with the marriage counseling.

I am not a doctor, psychologist, psychiatrist, or counselor of any type, but here are some thoughts that occurred to me as I read your posts:

  • your wife needs to feel safe. Now, I wouldn’t mind being groped by a sleeping partner, but I don’t have the experience with abuse that she does. Perhaps until other problems are resolved, the two of you could sleep in different beds. Just make sure they’re in the same bedroom, otherwise, you might end up creating a rift she doesn’t want to close.

  • your wife needs to feel loved. By that, I’m saying platonic love, not sexual love. She needs to know that you will be there for her, loving her and supporting her, without feeling like you’re going to demand sex in exchange for love and support. I’m NOT saying that you do, but she may be in the frame of mind where she perceives that.

  • your wife needs to do some major, major healing. Her experiences in the past are shaping how she’s handling things now, and she’s not handling them in a healthy manner.

  • you need to explore why it is your views, attitudes, and reactions to sex are still set at a 12 year old’s level. Look, I teach 12 year olds, and most of them are still at the “LOOK! A TITTY!” stage. It’s an appropriate, though tiresome, stage for pre-adolescents. It’s inappropriate, unhealthy, and ultimately damaging for a grown man.

  • Last of all, you and your wife both deserve to have a healthy relationship, which includes sex and expressions of sexual feelings. It may be that your wife won’t be able to, or that she is unwilling to do the hard work necessary to get there. It may be that, with your own problems, you’re not the best person for her to be with to sort all those things out. In that case, put the emphasis on the kids and figure out what the two of you need to do to provide them with the best environment - soldier through, separate, divorce, whatever.

Hope it works out for you.

4

Well, phouka covered a lot of important bases, so I’ll just encourage you both to get into therapy with someone you both like and respect and STICK WITH IT.
Your wife may not be ready to deal with the issues you want to bring out yet. A skilled therapist will be able to better help her get to that point than a pushy husband will–not because your intentions are bad, but because it’s sometimes easier to work on those things with someone who doesn’t have so much at stake. In other words, when you bring it up, she may hear you being controlling or demanding; when the therapist brings it up, it will come off much more as being an attempt to help. (Trust me on this one; I’ve been there.)
When it all comes down to it, all you can change is your own behavior and your own reactions to her. Work on those–you’ve identified them pertty concisely here–and with luck and a lot of patience, maybe she will begin to do the same. At worst, you will come out a healthier and more mature person.
Very best of luck. I feel for you both, having been in very similar straits for quite some time.
Best,
karol

5

DaddyTimes2, I thought your post was thoughtful and insightful. It’s obvious to me that you’ve given a lot of time and thought to all of this. I’m thinking that perhaps a combination of marriage counseling and one-on-one counseling may work for the two of you. And yes, I think it definitely can work, if both of you are willing to work at it. At this point, assigning blame (it’s her fault for never wanting to have sex; it’s your fault for looking at all that porn). Is pointless and counter-productive. It’s clear you both have a lot of issues to work through. Things are not going to change overnight.

When I started therapy about a year ago, to deal with childhood sex abuse, my husband was very supportive of me wanting to get help. We made a date night each Friday night (I went to counseling Friday mornings), and we could discuss things without interruptions from the kids. This helped an awful lot in several ways: First, he was making it clear that my healing was very important to him; Second, it kept him updated on what was going on with my progress, so that he could understand me better.

Be there for your wife, even if you think she’s not doing such a hot job of being there for you. Remember that the golden rule is “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, not “Do unto others as they do unto you”.

Good luck!

6

You ever stop and think that maybe you’d be better off without her?

7

I’ll also suggest individual counseling for each of you in addition to marriage counseling. There are a lot of different problems that need to be addressed and by someone not emotionally involved in the relationship.

I too was a victim of sexual abuse growing up. (Age 4-23) My husband treats me incredibly well and is sensitive to when situations are uncomfortable for me but he cannot and should not be expected to become a non sexual being for my sake. Sometimes he sleepily initiates sex and sometimes I’m responsive and other times I’m not. He doesn’t get bitter over it and neither do I. I realize he is not the monster in my life…

I did have a boyfriend in college who tried to wake me this way one evening. It was the last evening we were boyfriend/girlfriend.

The difference in the two situations is time and trust. I feel safest and the most loved when with my husband. We’ve been completely open about what we want/need from eachother and he has sat with me and really listened to everything that happened to me. This didn’t happen overnight and I still have days when I don’t want to have sex or I stop sex in the middle because something makes me uncomfortable. Even if I were not an abuse survivor I would expect to have those options.

There has been a lot of good and apt advice above but I would like to add one thing. You have children. Those children are learning how adults relate to each other and what marriage and parenting are like from you. What I learned in my parents home was that abuse was normal, screaming was normal, fear was normal, fighting was normal. It took a long time for my husband to show by example that those early lessons were not normal. Think of how your children see what is happening in the household and if nothing else seek the counseling for them. Believe me even really young kids know when things are wrong in the family. This may even be part of why they are sick and clingy a lot. I don’t know how old they are but I know small children who cannot express complex feelings verbally can act out in various ways like tantrums, clinginess, vague illnesses (like belly aches or headaches)

I wish you both the best in resolving things.

8

I was reading an article recently (it might have been a sleeping disorders article on MSN, I don’t recall exactly) about some people who have some kind of sleeping disorder like this - they do or say things in the middle of the night that they have no memory of. All sorts of sleeping disorders were mentioned - one that stuck in my mind was someone who was found to be sleepwalking into the kitchen and eating dry cat food by the handful! - but one involved people who act out sexually or violently on their sleeping partners at night. One woman woke up screaming while being attacked by an “intruder”, only to discover it was her still-sleeping husband. It might be worthwhile for you to see if you do in fact have some kind of real sleep disorder.

Good luck to the both of you.

9

spooje, that is so completely not the case, divorce would not help anyone, IMHO. But I think it needed to be mentioned.

Tanookie, the kids are 3 and 1, and I have started thinking about what they see happening between us, and that also worries me. Thanks for bringing it up. :smiley: We’ve been married for 6 1/2 years, and together for almost 9. My wife is still unwilling in a lot of ways to deal with anything. In the past when discussing this stuff I have made I think so, at least. I have no idea what she thinks. Which is also a problem.

phouka, I called it marriage counseling but we can go individually. There’s no requirement that we go together and, in fact, I will be on my own today.

Ayway, thanks for all the responses.

10

I hope the counseling helps. Unfortunately the only person you can control is yourself. Even if your wife is unwilling you should keep up the appointments. Maybe if she sees your progress or if the therapist teaches you a new approach to try and get her into counseling then that will help. I do see so many red flags in your posts (I don’t know what my wife thinks, porn is easier than sex, we can’t have a conversation because we get aggravated with eachother) This must be a difficult way to live.

It also has to be hard for her too. I don’t know her side as we only have your posts. You do admit to a fair amount of hostility towards her which is pretty counterproductive. She’s not going to feel she can open up when everything is met with negativity.

Quote:
“She was 15 and dated a “man” of 19 who, while I do not know and do not want to know all the details”

One thing that I wonder here is why you are reluctant to know the details? I appreciate not wanting to force your wife to relive an obviously horrific and painful time for her but should she need to share more of this experience to help her not be imprisoned by it and to help you see why she reacts as she does it would be counterproductive for you to force her to stifle that expression. Are you afraid of not being able to see her as a sexual being? Would that image forever cloud your ability to have sex with her? Has that attitude brought her even more shame about an act she had no control over?

I’m not a counselor nor do I play one on TV. I have worked quite hard to get over a lot of the issues your wife has and I have gotten to the point where I am no longer afraid to tell my story to anyone who wants to listen. Any questions you have about how I got here … I’m willing to answer.

I feel for both of you. I used to worry a lot about how my husband viewed me… as if everything about me was tainted by the abuse. I hope the two of you can work things through.

11

First off, two book recommendations for you: What About Me? A Guide for Men Helping Female Partners Deal with Childhood Sexual Abuse and Allies in Healing: When the Person You Love Was Sexually Abused as a Child

Getting over sexual abuse can be a long, hard process. She needs to be ready to deal with the abuse; you have to find the patience to deal with the amount of time it takes to deal with it. It sounds like she would benefit a lot from individual sessions with a therapist (perhaps more so than couples sessions at this point).

I’m particularly struck by your saying that you don’t really want to know details. I think that for a lot of abuse survivors, talking about details is an important step in working through it. You might need to explore with your therapist why you’re distressed about hearing this information and what you can do to deal with it if your wife does want to tell you the details.

From personal experience, I can say that getting through it takes work, time, and the support of people around you. I wish the best for both of you and hope that things work out.
Almost forgot to add–have you tried seeing if there are any support groups for partners/spouses of abuse survivors in your area? Those could be a really helpful system for you.

12

Ah, no. You have not been hindering her healing process.
From what you have written, I don’t think she attempting to heal herself emotional. I don’t think she is trying to change or develop or grow. It seems the only thing she wants to change is you and your appetite for sex and affection.
You aren’t broke. You don’t need to fixed.
Perhaps, just perhaps you are not the best things for each other at this time. THat is not to say anyone is wrong, or anyone is to blame, or anyone has failed or has inadequacies.

13

I think you can get about as much as anyone could expect from a website from www.marriagebuilders.com.

God be with both of you.

Regards,
Shodan

14

DT2-
Re: the groping in your sleep thing- it’s not as uncommon as you might think. See if she’ll do you the favor of a good stiff elbow in the ribs (shake you, whatever) so you wake up the next time you do it, and that way you can remember what you were dreaming about. A couple of those should do the trick, you’ll learn that she’s not in the dream with you.

It sounds like you have some issues, might i suggest some sort of 12 step sex addict program- mostly because they’re really good at helping you establish your boundaries. If I’m reading your post the way I think I am, you have big time rescuer issues. Was there an alcoholic in your immediate family? Are you the first born?
Anyway, do some work on yourself, your boundries, your locus and sphere of control. You’re gonna need a very clear understanding of who you are, where you stand, and exactly what you can and can’t change.

I hope this makes sense

15

For those that asked, I don’t want to know details for a lot of reasons. Mostly, she doesn’t want to talk about it herself. I’ve heard a little about them and my reactions have been varied. Anger, sadness, rage. And sometimes, “Damn, I wish I could do that!”, except of course I’m not going to be forcing or coercing anyone. I’m jealous is what it amounts to. That makes me extremely uncomfortable. It’s shameful, unsympathetic, selfish and certainly not what she needs to receive if we are attempting to talk through such things.

So that’s one reason. Another is that she never wants to talk about it. I dragged her to the therapist last time, and this time she was mad that since I was the one with the problem and I was asking her to make an appointment. So, there’s a lot going on.

Abbreviated answer, I gotta go.

16

To me, always and forever, the thing to remember is that there isn’t any “right” or “wrong” or “reasonable” standards in a realtionship–there is only what the people involved decide, what standards make them want to choose to be together. There’s no point in arguing about whether or not your porn intake is “reasonable” or about whether or not her lack of affection is “reasonable”: all that matters is what each of you is willing to give up personally or accept in each other in service of the greater enjoyment of being together.

You chose to marry each other, and you can choose to leave. Make sure you treat each other with kindness until you have your heads straightened out and can make that choice rationally.

This is my opus on the whole relatinship thing: it’s the best thing I ever wrote:

http://www.teemings.com/extras/mandajo01.html

17

My wife had problems with my porn viewing for reasons that touch some on your issues (and miss in others). I’ve tried very hard to give it up. When I see porn now, I try to remember the pain it causes my wife and that helps me to click to something else. It’s hard to do - especially at night or early morning when I’m the only one awake in the house.

Is porn harmful? Yes, I believe, to some degree. I used to feel that it was all free will & the women were willing participants. I later found out a picture I was viewing was a woman & her dealer. He used the promise of drugs to get the pictures. Technically free will but really scummy behavior.

A documentary on a new porn “starlet” let me know just how abusive the industry can be. It’s like watching a slaughterhouse video - the hamburger doesn’t seem so appealing afterward.

Find something else to do with the computer. My gaming skills are getting better since I’ve stopped viewing porn. Install “Net Nanny” -type software to make you have to think twice.

$.02

18

OK, I’m back. I’m sure everyone was waiting eagerly. Short answer from the therapist: doesn’t matter what happened to my wife, I still need to deal with me. I can make things better by changing myself. We’re talking behavior, here too, people.

It’s going to be a tough road. I have doubts that I have the strength to handle it. I’m unhappy. I am/have been depressed. I tried Lexapro for a month, which isn’t long enough so I’m going to give a real try this time. I need to grow up. I can’t be pouting about what I’m not getting or that my wife isn’t doing her fair share.

I struggle also because I am still hoping for the magic to happen and everything to be happy and good (that would require 0 effort or work on my part, y’unnerstan’). WhenI got home wife and I were talking about it. She said basically, “Yeah, all that abuse is locked down tight and it ain’t going anywhere.” Isn’t that like the completely WRONG answer? It’s exasperating.

Shodan, thanks for the link. Looks like there’s good stuff there.

tanookie, after talking with the therapist, I believe the ultimate problem is the complete absence of trust on her part. I need to get it back and it’s not going to happen any time soon. I can only assume that your progress in handling your past was done because you wanted to. What can I do if my wife has absolutely no interest in dealing with her past? She has it locked in a box in a dark place way down deep, never to see it again. That’s almost a direct quote. I can improve my attitude with hard work (and drugs), but she is so fragile that I just don’t believe I can keep it up forever (there’s no pun there is there?). That worries me and pisses me off.

I have a lot of work to do on myself, and apparently, it will be done all on my own.

Thanks for the advice.

19

Dx2 – she may not want to deal with her past right now. But based on my own experience, she will find that locking it down won’t work, it has a way of roaring back to the surface. I was 33 when all hell broke loose inside me.

However, I wanted to comment on your last sentence about how you have a lot of work to do on yourself and that it will be done all on your own. I don’t mean to sound flip or unsympathetic in the least because what you face is not fun – however, even if your wife was fully willing to begin her own healing process and be supportive of you, your healing process would still have to be done all on your own.

One of the toughest lessons I’ve had to learn and keep learning is that I am responsible for me and only for me. I can’t change you or really help you change (generic you, not specific). Sure, in an ideal world, your wife would be able to listen to you as you process your feelings etc, but the work is unfortunately yours alone, just as her work (if/when she begins to deal with her past) will be hers alone.

My sincere hope for you is that you will see the value in doing that work regardless of her support. No matter what happens with your marriage, if you are on the road to emotional healing, you will be so much better equipped to face the future. And of course, you will be able to offer much-needed support to your children.

Don’t give up on yourself – and know that healing takes time. The really tough part of my own healing took three years. Of course, in a sense healing never ends, I continue to see things I need to work on. That’s part of being human I guess.

<hug>

20

I commend you on your honesty with yourself and about yourself. That is the first hurdle for you. (Your wife hasn’t taken that step yet.)

You are going to need personal counselling – not because you are “bad” but because you need to find your own strength. That will help you for a lifetime whether you remain in the marriage or not.

People who are abused often suffer from a lack of self-esteem in adulthood. And often they feel responsible for their own abuse. It is going to be difficult for her to love you as you need and deserve to be loved – until she knows that she needs help and gets it. She has to learn to love herself and to believe that you can love her.

So both of you need individual counselling. But you can’t force her.

I make no judgment about pornography. Some couples even find it helpful to jump start their sex life. I would think that you wife is definitely NOT going to ever see pornography as an “okay” thing because she herself was treated like a slap of meat.

Also, I suspect that pornography may put you into the habit of thinking of women as sexual objects. (And your prior sexual experiences may underscore your own detachment from real intimacy. Women are very quick to pick up on that. That is the last thing your wife needs to feel about herself. And she doesn’t need to have to compare herself to airbrushed women on porno sights. So your “problems” are interconnected. At the moment, you are her “worst nightmare” (someone who treats women as objects) and she is yours (a sexually non-responsive woman. )

My therapist recently suggested that I explain my concerns to my husband in an email. It helps to break through some of the defensiveness. Perhaps you can explain in an honest and straightforward way that you realize that there are things about yourself that need work and you know it. Tell her you love her – if it’s true. Reassure her that no one has to make a decision about anything right now.

If she is open to it, spend some non-sexual time cuddling. Tickle her back. Brush her hair. Take a walk holding hands. Let her know that you can take pleasure in her without having sex. I like the idea of separate beds in the same room.

I do think that for now you will have to make a choice between living with a wife and looking at pornography.

If it helps any, my husband and I were able to forge a strong bond through the process of working out our problems. The actual work that we did was healing.

Find a therapist that YOU can really relate to in your individual therapy. You may have to try more than one to have a good match.

Try that medication again. If they don’t help you, try another. The help they provide varies with the person.

These are my “unprofessional” opinions. I hope that you find the answers you re searching for.