marriage counseling, sexuality, past abuse and a whole lot of other "baggage"

Y’all are kidding, right?

dx2 has a wife who, due to abuse in her childhood, is unattainable sexually. He looks at porn on the internet. He has incidents in his sleep where he’s apparently been groping his wife.

Meanwhile, his wife has put herself sexually out of bounds. And she’s refusing to go to therapy. And she’s insisting that her husband is the one who has the problem, and that he’s the one who needs to change.

I can’t think of a better way to emasculate a guy. dx2, if my summary of the situation above is even close to accurate, you are (in less than clinical terms) whipped. You mentioned that your marriage is the only sexual relationship you’ve ever had. It shows. No way would anyone who’s ever had any before fall for this line of bull.

Your marriage, at the moment, is all about your wife. Your needs are not being met, and you’re being pressured to change so that you won’t have any needs. Meanwhile, your wife is getting a submissive, asexual, nonthreatening provider of material goods.

I’ve got to go with Dan Savage on this one:

Unfortunately you can’t force your wife to do anything… trying to strongarm her will just make her see you as another abuser anyway. And yes there will be a lot of work on your part with the therapist and wether or not it is fair that’s just how it is. You’re right pouting won’t make it better.

I’m speaking on the assumption that you want to try and save the marriage. You’ve said you don’t want a divorce in previous posts so you need to work with what you’ve got. You may discover that while you love your wife you can’t live with her. I’d hope that she eventually gets herself back into therapy before she self destructs but only she can decide to seek help for herself.

Sex is an important part of marriage. It is also a fair barometer of how good the marriage is. If no one is complaining about lack/quality of sex often things are running very smoothly… in this case most everything about the marriage is out of whack. The sex is also probably the last thing that will return if/as this marriage heals. I understand your need for a sexual outlet but you need to work that out in a more private way since it causes such strife for your wife. This is probably something to bring up to the therapist too and soon.

Zoe makes a very good point too. Every sex abuse help book I have ever seen recomends non sexual touching to help with intimacy and trust problems. When was the last time you and your wife held hands or cuddled with no expectation at all for sex? Maybe you can find a book and read it then give it to your wife. Let her know you read it and would love to talk about it after she gives it a read.

Obviously with the kids you’ve had sex before. Can you pinpoint what changed that has made her shut down completely? Small children can really take some frequency from your sex life but they shouldn’t kill it completely.

In answer to your question… if it was really locked away then it would be gone and not affecting her today. It’s there and festering and she prefers that pain to therapy. Sounds like she has a lot of guilt so she is still punishing herself (and by proxy you and the kids) I decided that the abuse happened to me but wasn’t who I am and I had suffered enough… didn’t have to beat myself for my whole life over someone else’s misdeeds.

Zoe makes another great point with the email suggestion. Does your wife go online? Would she read this thread? Could you write her a letter? Just be mindful that language choices say a lot. Telling her “you never have sex with me and I’m pissed” won’t get the same response as "I know people have used sex to hurt you but I’m trying to show you I love you… " I’d also ask your therapist for some non threatening ways to approach your wife about the lack of communication between you.

It’s also not sex that’s the biggest issue for you…it is the most visible physical symptom of the problems in the marriage. You’ve addressed trust and communication in your posts… they are the key. Unless those things are present there will never be sex.

I’m not sure this is a cohesive post as I haven’t had breakfast yet :slight_smile: Again good luck!!!

MrVisible, I think there is certainly truth in your post as well as in the link you provided. It’s advice I would certainly follow if I wanted to flush my marriage down the toilet. Perhaps I made a commitmemt with out knowing all the facts. Bottom line, I did. I have kids. I’m staying. Thanks for the input.

I like the idea of her reading this thread. She doesn’t do much internet-wise on the pc at home. But I’ll bring it up for her and ask her to read it. Sometime, I’m not sure when.

In the past when I have suggested non-sexual initmacy she has said that she still feels the pressure that I will want sex. I think this is patently untrue and it’s a symptom of her issues rather than anything based on experience with me. I would love to sit together on the couch, or walk holding hands (she’s never been into this though) or anything that could be construed as intimacy. It’s an ugly situation right now and I just don’t know…

MrVisible, I wanted to seem a bit dismissive and firm in my response. I really do think there is truth in your summary, but I don’t see any sympathy or understanding. If tanookie’s husband had responded to her like that, she wouldn’t be quite so happy now, I don’t think. Or, maybe, she be happy but she’d be with a different guy. I’m willing to risk it.

Your wife had horrible things happen to her in the past. That’s terrible, and I feel bad for her. She’s not responsible for what happened. But she is responsible for her behavior, for how she treats other people, and especially for how she treats the people she’s supposed to love. She’s hurting you, and she knows she’s hurting you, and she doesn’t want to do anything about it.

There isn’t anything you’re going to be able to change about yourself that is going to solve her problems. No matter what you do, she’s going to be unhappy with you, until she changes some aspects of herself, which she seems completely unwilling to do.

Meanwhile, the kids who you’re staying in this marriage for are getting a very unhealthy picture of what a relationship is.

dx2, I don’t want to seem unsympathetic, but you’re in a rough situation. While I admire your determination to stay in this relationship, some relationships are pretty much doomed. And a relationship with someone who blames you for the harm that they’re doing to you is way up there on the list.

I understand that you’re not willing to leave her. It’s admirable that you take your commitment so seriously. But you need to seriously consider the welfare of your kids in this matter. It sounds like you’re a caring, dedicated father. What do you think is going to be best for your kids?

Even if you’re not prepared to divorce your wife, you may want to be prepared in the event that she divorces you. Do yourself a favor, and start documenting everything; you may be in a situation someday where you’ll be fighting for the right to even see your kids, and you can be sure that your wife has built up a ton of grievances which make you out to be a thoroughly awful human being. You’ll need facts, evidence to counter those. Don’t be unprepared.

It sounds to me like you’re in the middle of a great recipe for an awful relationship. How bad will it have to get before you consider the possibility that you’ll be better off without each other?

I’m sorry if I sound callous. I figure, you’re getting plenty of advice on how to stay in the marriage, how to make the marriage work, etcetera. I figure someone has to bring up the idea that some marriages are best when they’re over, and some married people are better off unmarried. But I emphasize, once again; if you really want to do what’s best for the kids, be ready to fight for their custody.

I should add that I’m not a counselor, I’m not a therapist. And it shows.

Dx2, just wanted to commend you on your commitment to therapy and working on yourself.
I suspect that some of what MrVisible is saying is actually what the therapist will be addressing (at least in part), because that is how my therapist responded when it became clear (initally, at least) that I wasn’t ready to leave my emotionally abusive husband. She will likely be working with you on how to handle this very difficult situation in as healthy a manner as possible, rather than teaching you how to “fix” it by changing yourself.
You seem to be quite forthright about some things you might want to work on. Be sure that they are issues that will serve you well in your own personal life as well as your marriage. Counseling is about saving your marriage, but it is also very much about making yourself a healthier person independently. You can be sympathetic, loving, and supportive of your spouse while still maintaining a sense of YOU, if you know what I mean.
You won’t be able to force this issue with your wife–you’ll have to be very patient and hopeful. Try to remember that she is operating out of fear, and that her refusal to deal with this is a function of that. Coming to terms with sexual abuse is absolutely terrifying to some people, and she will simply NOT be able to do it until she is ready.
Best wishes. Hang in there.

Since no one else has specifically responded to this portion, I have to say…wow. While a little pushing is good, I can see how your wife would be less than willing to open up if she senses that you feel she has the “wrong” attitude.

People have to deal with abuse in their own good time. I’ve been working on it on/off for ten years and there are still things that I haven’t dealt with as much as I need to. There are certainly times when I’ve been prodded by a friend/therapist/etc. to go a little deeper than I thought I was ready to go, but if someone pushed me too hard, I’d certainly be wary of sharing it with them.

In order for this relationship to work, both you and your wife have to figure out a way to supprt each other emotionally while working through your problems. I know it can be frustrating–I hope that both of you are able to figure out what works for you.

I am appalled that divorce has come up in this discussion, I suppose due to my Catholic upbringing (we attend church but I’m not much of a believer these days). It’s not something I would have seriously considered on my own.

The angry side of me wants to jump on MrVisible’s bandwagon, but compassion doesn’t allow me to do that. I suppose, MrVisible, you’d say that was the wimpy side. That’s what that Savage guy would say. And I am aware of what the kids are witnessing between us and that merely adds to my desire to get things working between us. I think though, that your position doesn’t take into account my responsibility for my role in our relationship, or, my part in bringing my wife to her current “state”, if you follow me. Her past is always with her, I can’t change that, of course. But if I can be/had been a better person, a better husband, a better man, and been more supportive of her and let her know that she really and truly is safe with me, she would be in a better position to deal with and confront whatever the hell is going on inside her. Certainly I don’t think my behavior has been on level with the past abuses she experienced, but neither do I (now) think that I have been helping her at all. If I can provide a safe and caring place for her, physically and emotionally, perhaps she will see that it is the right time to start her path to “recovery”, is that the right word?

Things still suck, but I hope they will improve as I improve.

Thanks.

So, some additional thoughts from the BTDT crowd…

  1. Ghosts in the Bedroom. (for you)

  2. The Adult Child’s Guide to What’s Normal. (for both of you)

  3. The Missing Piece Meets the Big O (Shel Silverstein - children’s story for grownups and kids - read it to yours)

  4. Healing the Shame that Binds You (both of you)

  5. Codependant No More (for both of you)

All good books. There’s also one that takes a really straightforward approach to the sexual abuse issue, but I can’t remember the name. I remember it scared me half to death when I first opened it, though, so she might not be ready for it. But it was valuable. Very solution-oriented, not all sweetness and ‘oh-poor-you’ but ‘you have a problem, lets look at it in the harsh light of day, and lets see what we can do to handle it.’ I’ll see if I can find it.

Re: the nonsexual touching. The trick is it has to be nonsexual in every way, not just the touch, but the subtle things that happen when you do. If you get turned on by it, even a little, then that’s over the line. BTDT - I can hear the change in breathing cadence, feel the change in heart rate, smell the change in his breath if he’s getting interested, even if his hands have not changed what they are doing in a technical way - it telegraphs, loud and clear. Because I was conditioned to respond to the man’s demand, these autonomic responses feel like pressure - they are a command to perform, regardless of how I feel about it. So, if your palms sweat or your heart rate increases when you do nonsexual cuddling, you aren’t doing nonsexual cuddling anymore - at least not in her perception. You can probably find something that counts, but at first it may not include ANY touching - it may be sitting in the same space, doing something companionable for a moment. Strangely, I found that me placing my hand on the center of epeepunk’s chest, with him not touching me at all was one way of starting to reconnect. Another odd one was us on opposite ends of the sofa with his toes tucked under my leg (or mine under his), often while we read or did something else fairly indepedantly so there was no expectant ANYTHING in the air, and I was too far away to pick up the physical cues. For a while, we only touched at my initiation. Period. No slip-ups, no pouting, no nothing. I had to have all the power in the situation in order to feel safe. And then I had to give over little bits of the power, a tiny bit at a time, so that we could share. There are ways around it. They will probably start out being too little touching for you, but it works out. If you are working on it.

As for the online activity, it is the lack of sharing that bothers me most, and the sense of shame the ‘hiding it’ engenders in me. Not hidden, open for me to peruse if I choose to, then it is okay. But that’s me. Secrecy is the hallmark of abuse relationships, so no secrets, period.

RE: her saying it is locked down deep, let me just say Oh, boy, when that explodes, it is going to be messy. I refrained from laughing only for the sake of dignity (mine).

Locking it down deep only means it will come up in another way, at another time. It escapes. It leaks. It comes up sideways, sneaks around corners of your life, and warps everything in its path. It changes your foundations, and all the structures you build on those foundations will collapse spectacularly when it erupts. BTDT, and it wasn’t pretty.

Locking it down is just another denial, and it denies everything - pain, loss, grief, shame, guilt, fear, rage, love, compassion, joy, peace. You lock down the negatives, you have to lock down the positives, too. You lose passion, vigor, and the fierceness that comes from truly living. You lose your capacity to be free. Open one tiny little door of emotions, even good ones, and it all comes out again, bigger than life, bigger than hell, and twice as scary. So all doors remain closed, and only safe/surface/passionless emotions are permitted, and certainly not passion for life itself. Which isn’t the best way to teach kids to become emotionally healthy adults. Nor is it a good way to maintain a relationship. Communication and trust are essential. So is the willingness to do whatever is necessary to heal yourself. Even if it scares you into blank-eyed dissociation. You can still do it. Even if you think you can’t. I certainly thought I was damaged for life, done, never to be improved, crippled beyond any hope of repair, condemned to just make my way along as best I could with what abilities and skills and feelings were left.

Boy was I wrong.

Healing sucks. Let me just repeat that. HEALING SUCKS. But it is, in fact, better than living wounded. More scary to heal, but more passionate. More alive. More real. People retreat from the healing because they fundamentally believe (from the perspective of the wounded child) that to face the pain is to die. But the eomtional pain doesn’t kill you. It doesn’t. Not only that, but it does end - it gets to be over, you get to live without pain. You can go from being diagnosed with a dissociative disorder (DDNOS, serious random dissociation) to being so free from the past that you forget it was ever a problem. (I honestly forget that I was ever abused, unless someone or something like this thread reminds me. It is gone, done, over, and healed. Memories remain, but they are nothing more than memories. They can come up, be shown around, picked over, examined, shared, and all without fear, rage, shame, guilt, pain of any sort other than a sorrowful but gentle regret that my childhood wasn’t what it should have been.)

Allow me to quote myself from another site:

Good luck. You’ve started - you’ve picked yourself up and started moving. You can do it, in, and back again, and be free. It is really much better out here.

Are you really reading my posts as being angry? Do you really think I’d call you a wimp in this situation? I’m sorry if you got that impression, but it’s not what I’m trying to get across to you.

You seem really torn up about something she claims you’ve done in your sleep. You do realize that sleepwalking has been used successfully as a defense for murder, right? That the Canadian Supreme Court has upheld a decision that a man wasn’t responsible when he “drove 14 miles, stabbed his mother-in-law to death and seriously injured his father-in-law.” (Link) What you do when asleep has very little, if any, bearing on what kind of man you are. Having your wife blame years of sexual inaccessibility on something you have no control over is manipulative and bizarre. If it was a problem, there are many ways to deal with it. Using it as leverage is absurd.

Do you mind if I ask you a couple of questions?

From my earlier post:

How bad will it have to get before you consider the possibility that you’ll be better off without each other?

How will you deal with it if she decides she wants a divorce? She’s already fired the opening salvo in this maneuver: “she told me that she would be better off without me.”

I believe a relationship can only improve if both partners are working to improve it. What is your wife doing to improve your relationship?

What most people in this thread are missing is the fact that your wife is uninterested in changing herself, is refusing to go to therapy, refuses to acknowledge her role in the problem, and seems to be doing nothing to make the situation any better. Instead, she’s insisting that you change yourself so that you won’t need sex, in effect making the whole relationship revolve around her problems. That’s not gonna work. You can’t fix her, you can’t force her to fix herself, and I don’t care if you’re a cross between Sir Galahad and Richard Gere in Pretty Woman, you’re never going to be a good enough man to fix this relationship all by yourself.

What Vis said. Will you be content to live in a sexless, loveless relationship? Is it enough for you to be married to someone who doesn’t care about your feelings? Will your kids be able to see through the veil the two of you have created?

There is a lot to consider besides staying together for the kids. You will become a lonely, bitter person if you keep asking for love and receiving nothing but indifference. No one deserves to live a loveless life. Sometimes things don’t work out the way we plan. It doesn’t make you a bad person or a failure. It makes you human. One of the basic desires humans have is to be loved. You shouldn’t deny yourself this because of a vow that isn’t being kept by your partner.

I think the point most of the rest of us are trying to make is that by choosing to work on himself, it will become clear in the process of that work if he really does need to leave, or if his movement toward healing will be the boot she needs to kick her into healing, too.

Sane partners make it hard for those of us who are not exactly on the mental health wagon to stay there - we have to move to keep up, or we get left behind. And if we get left behind by someone who has their stuff together, then so be it. But leaving in the midst of not knowing how much of it can be repaired seems pointless.

Many many relationships bust apart when one person gets healthy. Others become strong. It is too soon, IMHO, to tell which this will be - let Dx2 work on himself, and discover the truth of it in the process. His wife may well discover that she moves to keep up, even when there seemed to be no hope of that. If she does not, then he will know for sure what the answer is. Otherwise, he is guessing.

It isn’t anger I see in your posts, MrV, it is cynicism and a lack of compassion or (IMHO) the BTDT deeper comprehension of the dynamics of healing from these kinds of wounds. I have moved through the process from the other side, and see that there is at least a little hope, even for a ‘hopeless’ case. It seems a shame, especially with children involved, not to find out for sure. (Though I highly recommend therapy for them, too, because this WILL have rubbed off…) Regardless of my fundamental disagreement with your direction at this stage of the process, I think it is important for your voice to be here, too - because it may be, in the end, the wisest choice to cut the losses and leave. But we are not in the IRL situation, and we cannot see the whole picture. Leave it up to his therapist to help him determine the path. (BTW, good questions to ask the therapist along with the self - how do you know what your breaking point is, and when is it too bad to stay?)

What the hell is BTDT?

MrVisible, what hedra said. A lack of compassion does not a good realtionship make, and that’s all over your posts. “Trouble? I’m outta here!”

Perhaps I will give up (and that’s what I see it as). But not now.

hedra, I have nothing but sympathy for dx2 and his wife. It’s horrible that anyone should have to go through those experiences, and a terrible thing to have to deal with the consequences.

I don’t think it’s cynical to point out that dx2 can’t solve his wife’s problems without any help from his wife. Nobody is that strong; nobody is that compassionate. It just can’t be done. The lightbulb really has to want to change, you know? Putting the burden of getting “sane” so his wife has to follow along on him is intensely unfair. The idea that if he’s a perfect person, his wife will have to get better is the foundation for potential abuse, more than it’s a platform for healing.

Here’s the big question, though. dx2, what do you want therapy to change about you? What are the problems you want to address, that are rooted in your personality, and not your marriage?

You may be mistaking bluntness for a lack of compassion. Sometimes compassion means making hard choices. If you’ve considered divorce, and decided to stick it out, I think that indicates more honest dedication to a relationship than never even considering divorce to be a choice. I’d rather be in a relationship with someone who chooses to be with me, than someone who’s there out of obligation.

This is exactly what the therapist told me yesterday. By working on me, I can create a safer, better place for my wife. Maybe then she can begin her own struggle. And I don’t know how long I can last without any kind of intimacy. It’s been several weeks now. I’m taking the long view, I have to take the long view. I just don’t know how long.

Bluntness, definitely, and it can be compassionate to cut straight to the point as you see it. But timing is part of the issue. I don’t think the timing was compassionate for that bluntness, at least not in the straight-in application thereof. But hard to tell what is read from the other side of the screen, no? I do agree that it is important to heal for oneself, first, and only - can’t heal someone else, only oneself. That maintaining a relationship with the other parent of my kids can be part of what is calssified as ‘for me’, I can also see.

And I can also see that there is possibly still a bit of a flavor of ‘if I do this better, it will make it possible that she’ll be better’ in your reasoning, Dx2… but that will also wash out in the process of the work, if it doesn’t belong to you. Go get the Shel Silverstein book, it applies.

Been-There-Done-That : BTDT

I also have a nice set of relationship guidelines that I worked out years ago, that might be good therapy fodder, if you are interested. Feel free to email me if you want a copy. There does appear to be a chunk of respect missing in the middle of all the pain, and it might be helpful to look at things from a different angle. (For both of you.)

(oh, and as a complete aside, how the HECK did you manage to have two kids without suffering a substantial dry spell at some point before this? Or is it just that it is a different source of dry spell? I just read the last thing about it being a few weeks, and went, well, jeez, we’d have split up dozens of times over that by now if that was it! Just from the impact of nursing hormones and lack of sleep!)

(hmmm. how long is ‘several’? and yes, I realize that the lack of connection/intimacy/communication makes the time multiply in perception. Just wondering if you weathered other dry spells, or if you just didn’t have any, which would make me wince as it means she may well have been pushing herself in inappropriate ways and causing herself more damage in the process.)

I think mrvisible is taking the role of “devil’s advocate” for lack of a better term… and is assuming that DX2 is the only one whose needs aren’t being met in the marriage.

I also think it is difficult to assess his wife’s reluctance to change because it is presented through a rather biased view. While she is currently refusing therapy, she has agreed to therapy in the past and even initiated these sessions. Somehow something went wrong and they have slipped right back into the unhealthy behavior. All this is in the OP. My hope is that if his wife sees that a positive and prolonged change can come from therapy for him then she may decide to try again for her and him and the kids.

She does have a lot of issues but he is not entirely blameless for some of the problems in their marriage.

I don’t mean to beat up on anyone but from what I’ve gleaned in posts…
He’s admitted to not having or even knowing what a mature attitude towards sex is.
He has some rather strong negative feelings about knowing the truth about his wife’s abuse that is a real impass to helping her heal.
They have a dearth of communication skills.
He has a lot of bitterness towards his wife for her abuse, for using sex as a weapon/tool, for not seeking therapy or dealing with her past.

I’m not saying he shouldn’t be upset about all of these things but he needs to learn a better way to cope or he needs to learn that he cannot cope and must leave the marriage.

No matter what happens (divorce or not) he needs to learn how to communicate effectively with a partner and how to forge an adult sexual relationship and how to deal with people/partners who place him in unfair situations. These skills are important if he ever wants a happy marriage with anyone.

Quote from Daddytimes2:
“And I don’t know how long I can last without any kind of intimacy. It’s been several weeks now. I’m taking the long view, I have to take the long view. I just don’t know how long.”

is intimacy here true emotional closeness with your wife or just sex? Sounds like intimacy has been lacking for longer than several weeks to have the deep seated problems you describe. Were you and your wife truely connected during these experiences or was she just “doing her job?”

You may have to go quite some time without sex and as far as I know no one has ever really died from that :wink: I also second the ever wise hedra’s question regarding how you ended up with two little ones without having “dry spells.” My own frequency is pretty low lately (being in first trimester nausea hell and all that) but there is plenty of intimacy in my marriage.

PS… hedra is my complete idol now! She has incredible insight and grounded realistic advice… heed her :slight_smile:

That is not what most of us are saying. He is not “insane.” He is not “bad.” The success of the marriage does not lie on his shoulders alone. He does not have to be perfect or even anywhere near perfect. [i[The only person he has control over is himself.* Therapy will make him stronger for himself. That is where he has to start.

That goes without saying. But relationships aren’t static. At some point perhaps they both will find ways of moving away from “obligation” to the choice of love.

Marriages take a lot of work even in the best of situations. If everyone gave up when the situation is not satisfactory, I don’t know of anyone who would stay married!

All of us are concerned with D2X’s needs and happiness.

hedra, that post that you brought from another thread is amazing! Really, really sound.

One more comment on the porno issue. There is a big difference in self-stimulation and in using pornography for purposes of self stimulation. I have no personal objections to the use of pornography, but, as DX2 has indicated, his use of it at this time is a problem in the marriage.

DX2, how is your wife going to feel about your problems being made so public? You might want to think about that before you share the thread. You don’t want to make the situation worse for yourself right now. Adult survivors of childhood abuse keep things “locked away” and out of sight for reasons which seem logical to them.