For some reason, I thought you have been going without for much longer. A few weeks is nothing! I went a few years with my ex (his decision, not mine). Trust me, you won’t die.
Just jumping in quickly to say that “BTDT” is Been There Done That.
And to say that when hedra started getting her shit together, it made me have to get some of my shit together too. So therapy does help both people. I agree that it’s too soon to decide if this is unsalvageable. You have to give your wife a chance to see what therapy can do. And provide a safe place for her to be.
By “intimacy” I meant “sex” in my last post. Our normal pattern is once in a couple weeks, and every once in a while, when we both get things going, we’ll have sex several times over a week or two. Then bang, down it all comes. This is because of my behavior. I guess I don’t know how to have a grown-up relationship that involves sex. Even when it’s been “good”, it’s been kind of a wham-bam thank you ma’am kind of thing. And it’s not because I’m not looking out for her; she’s just not interested. I come, and she’s done, rather than the other way around. Also, and I mentioned this previously, I think the emotional balance she maintains is delicate. And whether or not I actually behave like a selfish idiot, or grope her in my sleep (both of which are entirely possible) or whatever, I think she can feel that I’ve wronged her or disrespected her and there it all goes. There have been several periods throughout our relationship, and it’s probably the norm, actually, where we do have sex, just really bad, quiet-lying-there-in-the-dark-till-you’re-done kind of stuff. That’s how we managed to have a second kid. And, yes, I am ashamed of it. There’s a whole ‘nother thread about this. I don’t think I can talk about it. Bottom line, seldom has it seemed to me that my wife is interested in and enjoying sex. This is because I fail in making her feel safe and respected, and also because her emotional balance is delicate, and anything and everything can upset it.
It’s not like I don’t want to know any details from her past, we’ve discussed a few. It didn’t seem that she was comfortable talking about it, so I thought I was giving her space to talk about what she wanted. I never said “Stop, I don’t want to hear any more!”. I’ve never gotten the impression she was ready to talk about all of it.
I’ve got to do some work, I’ll come back later tonight, I think.
Thanks.
I also thought that it had been longer than a few weeks.
My biggest concern in this thread is that there is domestic abuse either happening, or being set up to happen. Some of the classic signs are there:
“Our neighbors, family and friends I wouldn’t think could guess the depths of the hostility that exists between us.”
" We can’t have a conversation about anything because we get aggravated with each other. I get defensive; all I hear from her is criticism or commands. The kids have been sick it seems like forever and they can’t deal with me they have to have mommy. She gets worn out. Things are awful, I would like them to get better, and I just don’t know exactly how they can get better."
Add in the fact that even in the midst of all this, you haven’t even considered leaving, and you’ve got a recipe for an abusive relationship; if not now, then possibly soon. (One of the classic signs of abuse is one partner convincing another that there’s no way out of the relationship.)
And I don’t think it’s your wife who’s necessarily going to be on the receiving end of the abuse. Battered husbands are pretty prevalent these days, too.
If you’d been a woman, and posted what you did, I believe that this would have been the biggest concern in this thread. There seem to me to be signs that you’re in a relationship where you’re being emotionally abused. That concerns me.
So, here’s my list of question so far. Once again, feel free to ignore them. But do think on them.
From previous posts:
How bad will it have to get before you consider the possibility that you’ll be better off without each other?
How will you deal with it if she decides she wants a divorce? She’s already fired the opening salvo in this maneuver: “she told me that she would be better off without me.”
I believe a relationship can only improve if both partners are working to improve it. What is your wife doing to improve your relationship?
dx2, what do you want therapy to change about you? What are the problems you want to address, that are rooted in your personality, and not your marriage?
And some new ones:
How frequently do you have sex with your wife, on average? How frequently would you consider acceptable?
Has there been any physical violence during your arguments with your wife? Are you afraid that there will be?
Once again, I must stress; these are pretty big questions, and discussing them on a message board is probably wildly inappropriate. But the questions I’ve asked you to contemplate are, in my opinion, very important. You might want to keep them in mind, and possibly even ask your therapist about these subjects. If I was in your position, there is one question that I’d definitely bring up with my therapist:
How can I tell if I’m in an abusive relationship?
I have hesitated to give any advice or otherwise involve myself in this discussion, but looking back through what you wrote, I have a couple of concerns.
You mention that this is your third go-around with a counsellor, and you also stated that the first attempt at counselling was even before you married. My questions are:
Why did you marry her?
and, after all the problems and anger in this relationship did you see fit to bring not one, but two children into an already stressful/unhealthy situation?
I remember a discussion between us before we were married concerning our sexual relationship. We actually decided that maybe being married would make it all right. Just naivte, I guess. Or stupidity. (We should have gotten it “fixed” before marriage, is my point.)
I think kid #2 exacerbated the situation, lots of diapersm bottles, dishes laundry etc. Which I suppose is also your point. (BTW, she’s at home with the kids.) But it’s kind of late to worry about it. That’s why I’m seeing a counselor.
MrVisible, you must be a lot of fun at parties. I do not see the situation being nearly as extreme as you are seeing it. If forced celibacy is abuse, then maybe, but otherwise you are off the mark.
And for those who want numbers: we last had sex 6 weeks ago, on vacation. There has been nothing more than sisterly kisses when leaving for work in the morning and the like since. Our normal frequency would be 2 or three times per month. But I “help myself” daily (this is part of my obsession, I think). I’d like to have a nice “normal” sex life, maybe two or three times a week? With no baggage to slow us down.
And it’s all a long way off.
Now, I really won’t be back till later tonight, or tomorrow.
Just for my clarification, and please correct me if I’m wrong:
Your wife was possibly sexually abused as a child
She was sexually assaulted by a boyfriend as a young woman.
You and she were having troubles while dating.
You married anyway, despite the troubles that obviously were so bad as to warrant a counsellor.
You have two small children ( 1 and 3), which means you had two in diapers at the same time.
She is a stay at home mom.
You look at a lot of porn, handle your own needs daily, and have only occasional sex with your wife.
This sex is described as ‘wham, bam, thank you m’am’.
Now, let me preface my remarks thusly: I am not a professional counsellor, psychologist, or psychiatrist. My only credentials for commenting on your situation are the fact that I am a wife and a mother.
That being said, I want you to reread the list I typed out above. If all this is accurate, I wouldn’t blame your wife for being on the mental fringe. One question I would ask is whether or not any of this got worse following the birth of either children. If so, postpartum depression is another thing you could probably add on to the list. You are making positive steps with your counselling, but she really needs to seek help, also. If she’s uncomfortable talking to a counsellor, suggest she speak with her OB/GYN. That’s who diagnosed my postpartum depression, and often a woman has a trusting bond with the person who delivered her children. Hopefully she could speak with such a person on a much more personal level than she could a stranger.
FaerieBeth
This is going to be really, really difficult, especially if your wife is unwilling to do the work it that it most likely is going to take to make this relationship successful.
As a christian, I would be remiss not to mention that the Bible says that God hates divorce, but I do not believe that it says not to divorce under any circumstances.
You have a mighty tough row to hoe ahead of you. Even individuals from storybook childhoods have really tough marriages.
My advice is very general and may not apply to any one person’s individual situation. To me, what the situation as described really underscores is the importance of getting to know someone very well along with a familiarity with any heavily significant problems, issues, baggage or other potential big negatives, plus the necessity of having a good, solid plan to successfully address these problems should one decide to continue in a relationship despite overwhelming negatives on either or both sides.
Again, what follows is general, not personal. A seriously broken person does no one any favors by entering into a potential lifetime relationship without first trying to get help and addressing beforehand the inevitable problems that are bound to crop up. No one is bound to enter into matrimony with a seriously broken person if the likelihood of a successful relationship with that person looks dim.
I will join the chorus of those saying the only thing anyone can do is work on himself with the help of others. You won’t know until after you’ve done all the work whether or not it was worth it, but I would encourage anyone in a similar situation to try. Meds can help but, IMHO, there is also usually a significant underlying element of how one views oneself, others and how things work that is involved and that can only change that through hard work.
Work on yourself, give her sufficient time and then decide whether to continue the relationship.
Everyone has had lots of valuable advice, and I’ve only got this one trivial thing to mention. You said the kids wanted mommy all the time, and only mommy, and it made you feel bad. Speaking as a mommy myself, with two kids three and some years apart, little kids want mommy. The one year old especially will–it has nothing to do with you, it’s the way little kids are. If you were the one home all day, they’d want you and not your wife. Mr. Cameron used to feel pretty rejected when Paidhi Girl did that, when she was small–but it was just her age, now she’s a whopping six years old, and there’s no question she loves her daddy very much.
Which isn’t to say it’s not good to take some time with them. Speaking also as a stay at home mom, your wife might appreciate an afternoon off to have coffee with some friends, or whatever, and you and the kids can spend some time together. They might protest at first, but you’re daddy, and they’ll be okay and within a few minutes you’ll be having a lovely time rolling a ball to each other in the back yard or whatever.
Just a very trivial thought. I hope things go well for your family.
I think I have owned up to my failures in this marriage. And I think that we naively entered into marriage knowing there were some problems between us and expecting them to magically be corrected through … some magical intervention, I don’t know, something.
OK, in reverse order:
Bren_Cameron, thanks for the words of encouragement. It’s a little heartbreaking to have your kids ignore you, but I do understand it’s a stage. My wife (I really struggle to not use her name! I would like to keep this mostly anonymous) does take the odd lunch date with a friend, her sister, or a dinner meeting with the church mom’s group. And she’s working part-time, so she gets to see some grown ups to break up the day.
Lorenzo, thanks for the response. Neither of us really understood exactly how deep our problems could reach into our relationship. I certainly didn’t.
FaerieBeth, I’m probably too defensive, but I see an accusation between the lines in your last post that I don’t like and don’t think I deserve, but your list is pretty much on the money other than that. She has mentioned in the past that she thinks she might be depressed. Before the second kid she mentioned it to her OBGYN. He said consult your primary care doc. She didn’t. She got pregnant, unexpectedly, I might add (but you all probably assumed such, didn’t you?), and I think the shit really hit the fan. Post-partum depression I think is certainly possible. Plus we’ve had an unusually nasty winter for these parts. The kids were sick all of 2002 (I’m not exaggerating). Last year wasn’t any fun. This year is better kid-wise, the weather is improving, now I hope to work me, and by association, my marriage. Oh, and we still have both in diapers, same size too.
I think this must happen to lots of folks. Once again, I’m not sure this was the case in your relationship, but too many folks who are having a somewhat rocky relationship assume that getting married will make things better. In every such example I have ever heard of or known of the opposite held true. IMHO marriage in most cases is really, really hard and starting with serious problems, known or unknown, will usually make it much more difficult.
I wish you well and strength for the voyage ahead.
No accusation was intended at all, I was merely trying to sum up all the info you’ve posted in several different posts.
You are right about the weather. Seasonal depression does affect you in small ways, but they add up.
B_C had a good idea about the afternoons alone, but I see you’ve already been trying that.
May I make the suggestion of some good old fashioned romance? Courtship type stuff? Take her out to dinner and a show, flowers, compliments when she fixes up, or even compliments on dinner, or how well the place looks…that she really has a great touch with the kids and house…But make them genuine. If she burns dinner, don’t say it’s good because then you’ll undermine the trust even more, but DO keep an eye out for opportunities to be appreciative of everything she does do. I don’t know what your wife is feeling, but from your comments, it seems she feels like a sexual object. This objectification is something she doesn’t welcome? So take every opportunity to make her aware of all the other wonderful things she does as a mother and wife, and not just the physical stuff.
Drat! That was me…not him! mumbles about people logging her out without telling her
FaerieBeth
I really don’t have anything to add except to wish DaddyTimesTwo all the best in working to better himself and his marriage. I truly admire your willingness to address these very difficult issues. I wish you peace.
And:
hedra, your post about “locking it in” was without a doubt, the BEST post I’ve ever read about dealing with the mental damage of abuse and the real struggle to heal yourself. Bravo and thank you.
I really don’t have anything to add except to wish DaddyTimesTwo all the best in working to better himself and his marriage. I truly admire your willingness to address these very difficult issues. I wish you peace.
And:
hedra, your post about “locking it in” was without a doubt, the BEST post I’ve ever read about dealing with the mental damage of abuse and the real struggle to heal yourself. Bravo and thank you.
DaddyTimesTwo, there are things I’d prefer not to bring up on a public message board because they involve friends of mine who aren’t on this board yet, so, if you don’t mind, I’ll e-mail you privately. If you do, please delete any e-mail from cjhoworth without reading it.
There are a couple of things I don’t mind saying in public. First of all, what your wife said about the past being a big, dark box she doesn’t want to open is something I could have said a few years ago. There are things I didn’t want to remember because I was afraid they would somehow destroy me. With good counseling, including, in my case from good friends, and good healing that can change. Please, don’t either of you give up hope on this, but also realize that the fear that remembered pain can destroy one is very real, especially when one is dealing with too much pain in every day life.
Second, your wife might want to check out ACOA, officially Adult Children of Alcoholics, but unofficially, Adult Children Of Anything. The female half of the friends I mentioned has been helped tremendously by them.
Take care, and know you’re not alone. hedra’s right – healing sucks, and not in the good way! Or, as these friends of mine put it when I realized I was about to hit another major breakthrough at top speed, no brakes in sight, “Oh no! Not another learning experience!” On the other hand, the results do make up for it.
CJ
Depression (even very low-grade depression) is definitely a contributing factor to drive for intimacy, too. Check your diets. If you aren’t eating at least three servings of fatty (cold water) ocean fish per week, you might want to consider supplements. Lack of DHA (an Omega-3 fatty acid) is closely linked to depression, especially PPD - the placenta harvests it as a priority for the baby.
cjhoworth, I’ll take a look at whatever you got. I think I need all the help I can get. It took me a second to understand your message. “You want to send me an email, and then I have delete it without reading?” It’s still a bit early. 
Thanks.
hedra, is the diet still so important given that our daughter is now 16 months? The placenta is long one, if I’m not mistaken, and she quit nursing before Thanksgiving.
hedra, I just want to thank you for your incredible post.
Dx2, please, go read it again. And again, and again, because hedra is right on the money on every point, and she has just essentially distilled an enormous amount of information and advice and "what to expect"s for you. Amazing stuff there, worth printing out and keeping.
Again, just make sure that you’re comfortable with your counselor and KEEP WITH IT. Even if your wife refuses to go or participate. Even if you don’t feel like you’re progressing as quickly as you’d like. Even if you feel worse, or your wife gets worse, at some point. Because if you have a good, skilled therapist, she WILL be able to tell you how to help yourself be healthier, and if you can be healthier, it will be of benefit to your children.
Feel free to email if you need to vent, and please extend the invitation to your wife as well. Best to you both.
I’m not hedra but IMHO If lack of DHA is part of why she’s depressed then I think the diet would matter still. 9 months of pregnancy and then a year of nursing (Milk demands these things too IIRC) would have depleted all of her resources and if she’s not replenishing them then I would say 4 months is not going to undo the last 21 months of loss of DHA.
Also … I’m a stay at home mom with a 2 year old and a baby due in the fall. My husband is incredible about helping with baby duty and housework because while I’m home all day it is a very busy day when a small train wreck runs about trying to undo anything you do! He even cooks dinner some nights and I can’t remember the last time I was the one to lug laundry down to the washer. And yet there is no physical way I’m awake enough for sex 3 times a week anymore!
I’d take a long look at what your wife does all day (two small kids (do they sleep through the night?), house work, part time job, other family commitments, church.) What have you done to carve out some stress free time for you two to be alone (without the chance of screaming kids interrupting at any moment?) We have to plan our time together and we do work hard to make alone time for ourselves.
Nothing comes without effort… You’ve said a few times that you hope for something magical to come fix things. That’s just not how life works I’m afraid. Your marriage didn’t start on the most solid ground and it didnt completely fall apart overnight… there’s a lot of work ahead for both of you. Hope you can make it through! Please stay in therapy…