marriage counseling, sexuality, past abuse and a whole lot of other "baggage"

dx2

As the father of two boys, aged 16 months and 5, I can say that your expectation of sex 2 - 3 times a week, given your wife’s history and that she stays at home, is unreasonable. That’s not a knock on you. If you need it that often, that’s you. I’m just saying that her life is so hectic that she can’t find the space for intimacy. And since she already has issues, it makes it more difficult.

I had this discussion with another dad on another board, who wondered when their sex life will “go back to normal” (they have one child). The short answer is it won’t go back to where it was. It will find a new level. That will now be normal. And to help your wife get there will mean helping her - watching the kids while she does something for herself. Dates. Lots of communication. Let her know that you love her, you appreciate what she is doing, and that you want her. Take the time that you spend looking at porn and put it into your family. This is not a knock on porn, just that how you spend your time seems unbalanced. And change her diet. It made a big difference for us.

I completely agree with much of what has been said here - heal yourself, and give your wife a healthier space to move into. Support her, help her, lead her by example. Be a light unto her.

hedra has led me to be a better person and a better parent. I hope you can do the same. Good luck.

epeepunk, our sex life was never “normal”, I don’t think, which is part of the problem. There were problems before the kids, the extra work, the stress, maybe post partum depression, all of this just amplified existing problems. I don’t “expect” sex 2-3 times per week, it’s a goal. Shit, I don’t expect sex at all these days.

tanookie, one of first steps will be to do more around the house. I’ve gotten in trouble before because after arguments I putter around trying to be a good boy doing more stuff and then stop the next day or two. I will be taking a larger role.

Lots of you have been recommending time for “us”. As of today, and I hope we are moving away from this, time for “us” wouldn’t be that enjoyable. She just doesn’t have the time for that now (That’s what I think her response would be, at least). If things can smooth out at home, if she has some down time, that will be the next thing I want to insert into our schedule.

The diet is important even without pregnancy, nursing, etc. DHA lack is also linked to overall depression in men and women - it just gets a lot worse if you are pregnant (or breastfeed, as that also harvests every bit of you have left).

I think starting with time for her is an okay way to start, but really, discuss the plan with your therapist - you don’t need our okay, you need their feedback. I know I needed some time to myself just to process daily info. Journaling, reading self-help books, just taking time to cry, all helped. My advice (an IMHO not to be confused with therapeutic advice) will still include the caveat that once you start that, keep an eye out for opportunities for together time, too - very soon after starting to give her her own time. Even if it is just raking the yard together, in silence. Or talking about the kids, how they are doing, what they are learning, what she appreciates most about who they are. There’s a lot of bonding to be had in parenthood, and you might as well take advantage of whatever tools are handy.

Good luck. I don’t know that there’s much more to say at this point - therapy is where it is at, really. Do the work. I do understand the mistaken belief that love should make everything easy. It is the line we are sold as children, the Disney version of the fairy tale. But it isn’t true, and you might as well grieve the loss of the dream - it was a great dream, and would be wonderful if it had really been true. Sucks to be lied to. But effort is required. It doesn’t have to be miserable, and effort is required for most of the things we do - we just stop noticing that it takes effort, once we start seeing the payoffs.

Instead, love makes it possible to do the work when it otherwise would not be worth the sweat and struggle. It involves loving yourself, respecting yourself, and taking care of yourself. The payoffs are wonderful, but being in a relationship is hard work, period. I’ve advised people to not leap into marriage unless they know their love is really strong - not because love is some romantic ideal and will make things perfect, but because love provides the strength to break down the old rules, forge new rules, fight for what you want from life, be humble enough to accept your own flaws and work on them, and respect each other enough to be honest, be clear, and communicate.

I think I will send you the relationship rules document I wrote, because I think it will help (even though you didn’t take me up on the offer earlier, I’m going to go ahead - delete if you wish, your actions are up to you). It will have to wait until tonight, though, as it is at home.

hedra, I wasn’t meaning to be ungracious re your offer of the “rules”. I appreciate any help or advice you have.

Thanks, I will certainly read it.

No prob - I just figured the offer got lost in the masses of text in my posts… :wink:

(I really have to track down that quote, the one from Abraham Lincoln, that goes something like: “Forgive the lengthy letter, I did not have time to write something shorter.”)

I’ll post a note to myself to send it. You should have it tonight. It is something worth sharing with your wife, and as a whole document not specifically about your situation, may be less threatening and interesting reading for her as well.

This has been a problem for me, for us, really, all along. We can’t talk about certain things. I end up sounding like I’m lecturing her on what she needs to do, or I sound accusatory and we end up pissed about something new. This doesn’t happen all the time, but it has before and will happen again if I don’t learn to approach and handle the situation differently.

And, since she is not interested just yet in confronting her past abuse, won’t any action on my part that introduces the idea that she needs to do just that, simply make her mad? “Honey, I know that you’re content having this box all locked up deep down somewhere, but take a look at these rules some strange person from the internet sent to me.” I’m of course exaggerating here, but how do we talk about a subject I know she doesn’t want to talk about? She’s said as much, “I don’t want to talk about it.”

This thread could go on forever. I think I will bump this after my sessions for a while, unless I decide not to. Or at least periodically, if any one wants to keep up.

Diplomacy is a skill that you will need.

How about: “I was thinking about all the things I don’t know about how to have a good relationship, and came across this info (plop the document in front of yourself - not in front of her) - would you be willing to go over it and tell me what you think? I’m trying to take our difficulties seriously, and I need some input from you - point out where you think we’ve got work to do, maybe?”

As for the lecturing thing, oh, boy will that rules thing help. So will one book in particular, which will help both of you: “You Just Don’t Understand: Women and Men in Conversation.” It sounds like at least one fundamental issue is that you are both using gender-specific conversation styles, which means she wants commiseration and you try to help (lecture), and you want to have your problems minimized to reduce your stress level (‘hey, it isn’t SO bad…’) and she sounds like she’s one-upping you or saying she has it worse than you. Neither set of needs gets met, you both feel like the other isn’t listening, and certainly doesn’t care, and you get mad at each other or feel wounded… Sound familiar?

Another thing you might want to look into is Meyers-Briggs Personality Survey. If you are sufficiently different types, your communication skills will be lighting more fires than you put out - until, that is, you learn how to cope with the other type. Try: “Intimacy and Type: A Practical Guide for Improving Relationships for Couples and Counselors”

BTW, my relationship rules includes some M-B info, in a very general sense. You might as well read up on it separately. I’m sure there are mini-tests on the web, as well as threads on this MB on the topic.

Oh, and on looking up the “You Just Don’t Understand” book on Amazon, there may be better books that cover the same content in a more-up-to-date way. I, however, found it very useful and not at all derogatory to men (some men seem to disagree, though I’m not sure why - but then, it has been ages since I read it). It is still worth a look, because it introduces the idea that the goals of your conversations may be utterly different, and that the unspoken messages can make a real mess of the outcome of a conversation.

One of the rules, by the way, is that if you don’t say it, you didn’t say it. epeepunk and I worked out that if I needed sympathy, and he offered me advice, but I hadn’t specified that I didn’t WANT advice, just sympathy, the problem was on my end, not his. I had to realize that as a human, his automatic response would be to do what he would want done for him… male, female, whatever, we tend to think of others as like ourselves, and are often wrong. Given that, we have to pay attention to our responses, so that we don’t act on the assumption that ‘you are the same as me’ in all cases.

Over time, we’ve grown accustomed to each-other’s styles, so his response to my bad day commentary is more like ‘that sucks’ and less like ‘if you did X differently, it wouldn’t have happened’. (for example) We still mess up, but we also are willing to accept culpability when we weren’t clear about what each of us needed from the conversation. Now, many of our ‘arguments’ start out with things like, ‘Hey, you forgot to say something nice about all the work I did today before you pointed out the things I didn’t do or didn’t do right.’ Followed by ‘oops - my bad, I really think the X looks great, and I am grateful you have the skills to do it. I guess I wasn’t clear enough about my priorities, though, because I needed Y done today - is there some way I can make that more clear next time?’ … We used to start with, ‘you don’t appreciate anything I do, why are you so critical, don’t you understand how hard I’m working right now?’ and it would go downhill from there. Granted, I still forget things (mommy brain!), and he still has to stop himself from ‘helping’ me when I’m struggling and just want encouragement rather than help. But with the majority of the conversations in the right realm, the errors often become cause for humor. And when they do not, we also realize that there are issues on both sides, and we both mess up sometimes. We’re human, in other words.

Specifying the style/approach problem before the ‘you hurt my feelings’ part of it is very helpful for keeping the conversations positive and kind - and useful, to boot. If we start from the rules every time, we can release hurt feelings or conflicts before they become personal wounds, and we can apologize for our ACTIONS instead of our thoughts/feelings. No shame, not a personal flaw or failure, but an error - and one that can be remedied. Well worth the effort. And way less stressful once you try it a few times.

Did any of your therapists detail how to use ‘I’ statements? (never ‘you’ - always ‘I’ - it defuses so much…)

I do realize when I’m entering lecture mode most of the time (I got that from the Venus/Mars guy) and I can stop. And she doesn’t want to talk at all. About this specific topic at least.

This little conversation summary you have here does indeed ring some bells for me. I know that we would benefit from some improvement in this area.

There’s more than one way to skin a cat…

That topic may be off limits. But because it affects so many areas of your lives, there are probably dozens of other ways to affect the process. If you focus on just your communication skills, say, or even your co-parenting skills (including communication), that may take enough pressure off that other things become possible. You certainly have enough areas to work on, you can pick one that isn’t currently as disastrous to start with, and see if that frees up enough energy to work with other areas.

Wow, I just went through the entire thread (which my wife found and pointed out to me) and it has opened my eyes. DX2, I feel for you. My wife and I are having many of the same problems that you are discribing (specially the sex, going on 3 MONTHS now believe me, you won’t die). I understand your frustration about intamacy. One of the biggest things I am missing right now is not the time between the sheets, but the tickle fights, cuddling on the couch, or simply spending some quit time togeather ( not even touching, just not fighting). After the first month, I thought I might wear my penis out (from all the personal time) but I must say, that the “holding pattern” that our sex life is in has helped me see that we wern’t having any intamacy, just sex (like a job). Now don’t get me wrong, I think sex in a marrige is very important, but I was focusing on it (and not the other things) way too much.

Hope this helps a bit. If not, well I tried. But just to let you know, your starting this thread has helped my wife and I to try and “mend” our lives. Thnx.

Oops, almost forgot to give props to all those who have posted. Message boards, and threads like these give me my faith back in humanity.

I must apologize to my wife for accidentally posting under her profile( damn cookies ) Seldon didn’t post that, I did. May I now be hung from the yardarm, flogged, and beaten with a rubber chicken.

Oneof the things the counselor pointed out to me after one of my “big revelations” is that everyone thinks they are alone in how they fell about things and, often, it’s just not the case. I’m not sure that makes me feel better, but at least I’m not alone.

DaddyTimesTwo-

I’m late getting to this thread, but very rarely have I ever come across a posting that I could relate to as much. I’ve been dealing with the exact same issues as yourself on a general level. The more sexually frustrated I became with the entire situation, the more likely it was that I would touch her in the middle of the night. I no longer have this problem, and I can’t say directly why other than my mindset has completely changed and I no longer feel like I have a right to sexual relations with her. It never is a right…expected and hoped for, but never a right.

Ultimately, my wife has revealed that she has lesbian tendencies that were “enhanced” by her horrible sexual experiences with men. Right now we are at the edge where divorce seems imminent, even though we still get along fairly well.

I can give you two pieces of advice that I guarantee to be helpful and ture :-). (or your money back!)

(1) Wherever there is an unhealthy person in a marriage…there are two. Unless she has profoundly changed since you have known her, you too have some not-so-obvious issues that led you to her. Healthy people do not invite unhealthy people into their lives to spend eternity. Find ways to improve and work on yourself. Whether you end up with her, or someone else…it is to your benefit to improve and help yourself. We ALL have issues.

(2) Invoke a sexual moratorium. Tell your wife that you don’t want to have sexual relations for x number months. Yes, it completely sucks but it will do several things. First of all, it will take the pressure off of yourself and her. You will no longer be looking for her availibility and she will no longer wonder if you are doing things with any sort of sexual end goal in mind. Secondly, it will allow you to see that you don’t need sex from anyone. You might want it, but you don’t need it. You cannot depend on something for happiness that can be taken away. It might enrich and add to your life, but it cannot be a requirement for happiness. It will also give you a chance to break a bad sexual routine where the same emotional issues flood in. Finally, IT WILL help clear YOUR mind when you don’t have to be a slave to your sexual desire and disappointments. It will make or break your marriage…but it will give you some clarity.
My situation is currently a mess…but I feel strongly about the above concepts. Good luck :-). Let me know if you want to take this offline in some way.

Argh, I was soooo getting into this thread, then BAM!!! No more posts.

My post got eaten cause I wasn’t logged in. Crap.

In summary, my latest appointment reinforced the plan to work on my self and my behavior (the only thing I have the power to change, after all). After I get so damn wonderful the plan is my wife will find the desire to work on herself. It’s frustrating because the payoff is far down the road. I have to keep in mind the “no pouting” rule made during the first appointment.

Anyway, I think things are better at home, but it still feels we’re more like room mates than husband and wife.

Thanks for the interest gruntz#1, and sorry to keep you waiting. :wink:

Well, it seems that my wife and I are unable to discuss this “sex” thing without it quickly devolving into an argument.

In summary, I am a “jerk”, “mean” and a “pervert”. I am only trying to be nicer becasue i want to get laid. The only reason she’ll talk to a counselor is so that her husband can get laid. The lack os sexual intimacy bothers her because it bothers me so much. It’s always me.

She’s seen several counselors, as I’ve said, feels like she’s made some progress and yet nothing ever changes. I suppose that is true due in no small part to me. I have to change a lot as well, and I haven’t done it.

Bottom line, I’m rather hurt and pissed off. she’s told me in the last few weeks that she’d be better off without me, and I’m a jerk, mean and a pervert. Oh, and tonight she also said if we didn’t have kids, we’d probably be divorced. She doesn’t like being with me so she treats me like a friend.

A fucking roommate, no pun intended. I feel like that kid in A Christmas Story when he says, “One day I’ll be blind and then they’ll be sorry!”.

OK, I want to get laid. Sex is good. But the total lack of intimacy is absolutely killing me. she alsoi said that maybe she does that just to drive me crazy. I don’t know what to believe.

I just know I’m not that happy, I thought I was feeling better. If I had more balls and more money I think I’d move out.

Well if the relationship is bad it will hurt the kids more than you two being apart. My mom along with a few other factors literally drove my dad insane. After they seperated it was much better for me and my siblings. My dad only got better after he left my mom and my mom only got better after she remarried.

You two don’t sound nearly as bad as that though.

I’m dealing with alot of the same issues, from your wife’s point of view. I’m beginning to realize that the problems in my marriage aren’t all my SO’s fault. I have alot of baggage, but I’ve never sought therapy. I guess this is a question that’s not really directed at you, DX2, but for others who have gone through therapy and healed.

What does talking to someone else really help with? Everything that hurt me growing up, I can look at it in my head, I can examine it and put it back. I’ve never thought my feelings belong locked up in a deep, dark place. However, I feel the way Hedra described: I only allow myself to feel those nonemotional emotions, I never allow myself to feel really bad, but also never allow myself to be happy.

Will talking this over with someone who charges $90 an hour really change anything?

DX2, I’m sorry to hyjack your thread. I only posted this here instead of starting a new thread because maybe some answers from others might help both of us. Maybe your wife has some of the same feelings about therapists that I do?