Daddy, I’m getting into this late as well, but a comment you made about your children always seeming to be sick worried me. I once worked with a lady who seemed pretty well-adjusted with two small children, who were always sick. It turns out she was purposfuly making her children sick to bring more attention to herself and as a way of relieving stress. It is called Munchausens byproxy (spelling??) I seriously doubt your wife has this, but I felt the need to at least bring it to your attention.
Daddytimestwo… It doesn’t seem like things have gotten any better for your family, I’m saddened to hear that. Sometimes though relationships are too broken to repair. Have you thought about a trial separation to help give each of you the space to heal separately? Then at the end you can reassess where you want the relationship to go? Sometimes from inside the relationship people cannot truly focus on the larger issues because they are caught up in the minutae of day to day life. Some time apart may help this… when you havent spent all day fighting about laundry and dishes it may be easier to deal with the real problems. just my thought… please stay with your therapists advice!!!
Seldon… I’ve dealt with many of these issues too… from the wifely point of view… and I never had therapy. I felt like you do about therapists. Then I met a few really good ones! Boy do I wish I’d known them then! The right therapist can help you face things you turn away from on your own but the wrong one can leave you feeling the same or worse than you did before. If you seek therapy make sure you feel comfortable with the therapist… Also, I don’t know where you’re from but having worked in a therapist’s office I know most insurance companies (In the US) allow their clients at least 12 mental health visits a year. You may want to check with your company.
Liirogue… munchausen’s crossed my mind too! I also worry that his children are sick as a way to focus their parents attention on them and off each other… hard to fight when you’re tending a sick child.
Just remember, Dx2, that the counselling you’re going thru is not to get her better, but to get you into a good enough place where you can make decent decisions about what you need to do for yourself and your children.
And a decent counselor is invaluable for helping to put things in the proper perspective. Otherwise you hear the same old tapes in your head over and over and over and over. So money spent with an effective counselor is money well spent. Remember, there are things about you that you can’t see, but another person can. Everyone’s like that.
QtM, MD
You people are rather morbid. The kids are sick because they have allergies. And the pollen is flying in my part of the world. They also have new drugs to manage it, so they’re getting better.
I was rather angry when I last posted, I have since calmed down. I don’t like being called a monster. Since calming down, I am still hurt and a little mad, but mostly I am worried. If my wife can live with me and behave like a normal person and be polite and friendly when she thinks I’m a monster, I just can’t imagine what the inside of her head is like. Is there turmoil? Is it just locked down tightly and it just bursts out every now and then, like this weekend, to let off some pressure?
I worrybe’cause she’s been to see several therapists, and says nothing ever changes. One was before we got together, and she said this woman really helped her deal with her anger toward her mother. But she has said that she’s still mad about her mother working when she was a kid. she does not have the ability to forgive. It stays and festers and hardens. And she’s still 99% of the time functional and normal in every visible way.
She resists even seeing our family doctor about depression (and I think the past winter was very VERY hard on her), much less another therapist. I guess I just need to focus on me, it’s the only thing I can do.
QtM, thanks for saying that. I need to remember that.
Ditto on QtM’s comment. Work on you like crazy. And did you go get the recommended books? Get them.
One of the things people do when they are scared of getting help is try to keep the people around them from getting help, too. Because if YOU are sane and working from a good place, then it does two things: 1) it makes it clear who the sane one is, and 2) it makes it very hard for her to NOT do the work.
The scariest thing a wounded person with a huge shell ever hears is that they are the not-normal one. They will try like hell to make it all sound like you are the not normal one.
So, if there is anything about you that is not healed, she’s got enough ammo to make her defenses seem rational. But once you don’t have those issues, and you no longer rise to her bait, she will be left having to deal.
BTDT. You’ll eventually know for sure which way is the right path. Get healed so you can decide. Good luck!
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to offend! I was just worried because you mentioned the kids were sick, and then all the problems with your wife. It was never my intention to insult/anger you in any way!
I wasn’t trying to be morbid either… we see a very small slice of your life through the message board and have only that to comment on. As unfortunately morbid as these things sound they do happen in some families. Munchausens’s has killed more than a few children.
Just adding a boost for the advice QtM and hedra gave… Ditto to both of them 
DaddyTimeTwo,
I share what looks to be the exact same situation as you. I don’t care what everyone else says, you cannot tell yourself how to feel and your anger and frustration is completely warranted. How you control yourself is the challenge.
Like me, you just want to feel close to your wife as she deals with her issues and the fact of the matter is that she is completely unable to deal with herself let alone you.
Trust me on this. Really. Drop the whole sex thing. Tell her that there will be NO SEX in the relationship for at least 3 months or more.
Yes, I know. It completely sucks and you don’t want to think of not even being able to be intimate with you own wife. To have married someone, trusted them with your soul only to find that they cannot even be intimate with you. Yes, you are going to have to live like roomates. I spent months being pissed off about my situation. I would try to give and understand only to find I was getting nothing (ANY form of intimacy) in return which was hard.
If you don’t completely cut out the sexual issue (don’t talk about it either) you will be a slave to it.
It has been almost three months since my wife and I have been intimate. During that time, we have had some nice moments but the truth of the matter is that it hasn’t helped out relationship in many ways. It has helped me. No longer can she blame me for hanging that pressure over her head. As a result she has been struggling with herself more and me less. I’m no longer as much the target for her issues. Supportive…but not a target.
You currently are. The sex thing is part of her problem and you are part of the sex thing. It is unfair, uncool, and completely sucky but you need to cut it out. It will make you start thinking long term like you should and not short term.
It will improve you, your head will clear up as you stop obsessing with it and you will have more clarity to make decisions because you will STOP evaluating her availability all the time sexually.
You would be surprised what you have been doing or not doing because of sex in your relationship ;). Good and bad.
I wouldn’t mind taking this offline if you like as I think we could help each other.
How often do you other posters have sex with your SO?
She’s mad at her mother for being a working mom, too? She was molested by an unseen spectre in her grandmother’s house in the middle of the night. She was date raped, too.
I’m having trouble with all this, though, because similar things have happened in my life. I was date raped. My mom worked. All the time. I married a much older man at the tender age of 18. He went on to verbally (and just once physically) abuse me. I take Paxil for a diagnosis of PostPartum Depression after the birth of my third son, but until that day in this past October, I had never had any mental/emotional issues. I went on to have a happy, healthy, productive life. No scars from being a child of a working mom. No scars from being date raped…I guess what I’m driving at here is this: Why should it affect some so deeply, but most, not at all?
This is not meant to be inflamatory at all. It’s just puzzling.
Oh, and skreemr, about twice/three times a week on average. We’ve been married for three years.
Oh…and Stonebow is my second, last, and best husband. Just so you don’t get confused on that older guy who was around before.
sheesh
FaerieBeth
I think, FaerieBeth, if we could figure out just why some people are affected so deeply we could solve so much that is hurting so many.
I had an acquaintance years ago who was raped by her father after her mother died. This is pretty much the short story. She told me I was so normal because I had been abused so young that I didn’t know any better and since she knew a better way of life that it hurt her more. I cannot accept that. I think we are all just given different coping abilities; when the ability fits the experience we do well but when they don’t fit we flounder.
Just my opinion…
Oh and skreemr… as often as is possible. But realistically we ebb and flow… pre kids at least every other day… post kids it depends on if the kid is sick. Being pregnant again has been rough as it is hard to be amorous when nauseus We manage 2-3 times a week whenever possible. But sometimes a whole week or more will go by with nothing… you adapt! We’ve been married almost 7 years and together for 12.
Sounds to me like you’re lucky, FaerieBeth.
I think the answer to your question would also answer why some people are alcoholics and others aren’t, why some people can train for marathons and others are obese blah blah blah and etc.
The foundation for adult mental health (including resilience) is in infancy. neuroscience is starting to connect the dots, and it looks like the major reason disasters cause mental illness in some people and not in others is twofold.
-
Reliability of the primary caregiver’s responses to infant cues (less-than-a-second in responsetime), and the degree of reflectivity in the caregiver’s reaction set up the system for sound mental health. Unreliable responses set up to not be able to process emotions effectively. This is why a ‘bad’ parent set can generate kids who are capable of overcoming life’s disasters, and a ‘good’ parent set can end up with kids who cannot cope. It isn’t the later parenting that sets the capacity to cope, it is the little moments in infancy.
-
Messing up on the caregiver-infant attunement but then getting back in tune increases resilience. Kids whose parents had disconnects with them now and then (normal parents, that is) end up able to process stress with an assumption (at the neurological level) that things WILL be better. If the parents either seldom-to-never messed up, or seldom-to-never got back in tune, then kids tend to crash when faced with crises, instead of bouncing back.
You asked. Here’s a link that discusses it in depth.
As for frequency, it varies. Peak was probably twice a week (after marriage), and once a week if we have babysitting (after kids). We have stretches of nada for a month or more at times (just ended one of those, thank heavens!), but they are to do with logistics - one person tired, another sick, a child sick, too many household tasks one day, etc. Not a lack of function or interest, but a life that includes many priorities.
Sorry to take so long to get back to you, but, as I said, I’ve got a friend who were in a similar situation. I’ve talked to him about what I’m about to post here, and I have his and his wife’s ok.
His wife was also sexually abused when she was a child, which left her with problems later in life. Because of the difficulties they had in enjoying sex, my friend wound up being celibate even though married for four years. There are many reasons why they did not divorce, but one big one was their marriage and their relationship with each other was far more important than mere sex. They started therapy some years ago, and, while it seems like there’s always more work to be done, their marriage is still rock solid and their love for each other is still strong.
They also chose one option which, while it may sound radical, does seem to have worked. They have an open marriage. I’m no expert on polyamory, but I have learned about the basics of this type of relationship, starting with the first rule: they are each other’s Primary. What this means is the relationship they have between each other and each others needs come before any relationship they may have with someone else or any needs a third party may have. I’m a woman who finds it easier to get along with men than with women, which means sometimes I’ve had women react to me as a threat. I don’t have to worry about that in this case, although I did at first, because she knows her place in his heart and in his life and vice versa.
DaddyTimesTwo, I recommend you do NOT bring up the idea of an open marriage right now. From what you’ve posted, I get the impression your wife will just see it as another excuse for you to have sex and another reason why you’re a sex-crazed pervert. I would keep it in mind as an alternative to living in a sex-less marriage. Look I’m not a psychologist, etc., but I have learned a couple of things. Right now, you and your wife have fallen into patterns of thought and behaviour. Breaking those patterns is difficult and will take time, but it can happen. I get the impression (please excuse the psychologizing language!) your wife sees you doing something nice for her as a way of getting her to want to have sex for you. Sooner or later, if you keep doing nice things for her without asking for sex, she may become aware that you think of her as a nice, fun, loving person, not just a sex object. With the pressure off her to be constantly sexy, she might even start to feel sexy herself. That, by the way, is one useful aspect of an open marriage – it takes the pressure off someone to fulfill all their partner’s sexual needs. In the meantime, I will understand if you seem to be spending a lot of your time jerking off!
You’re in a difficult situation, but it can get better, even though it does take time. The friends I mentioned have been married over 25 years, and they are still each other’s world to each other.
Good luck!
CJ
Damn, I’m out the door here at work, but I’m coming back tonite to post in this thread.
There are many similarities between Daddytimes2 and myself, but I have the silver lining.
Trust me on this one…
Thanks, Tristan. Now I’ll never get anything done today.
And thank you, cjhoworth. I’ve thought of the “open Marriage” thing myself. But that would never work for me. I have my own jealousy and guilt issues involved in that. And my idea of marriage doesn’t encompass such behaviour. Although, celibacy isn’t in there either. I guess that leaves divorce? Shit.
I just need to keep working on myself, that’s the plan. Stay the course (and all that).
Alright, I’ve been thinking about how to word this all day, and I couldn’t quite figure it out.
I figured out why though… while there are similarities, there is one key difference.
Ok, my fiance and I have known each other for many many years. I met her when she was 13. I was 16. We were friends, though distant because I lived so far away.
I moved again after High School, and ended up living in the same town as she did. It was then that I discovered her past.
She had been sexually molested by her step-father from the age of (roughly) 5 until the age of 15. When she finally told someone, that someone involved the police. Her evil mother did everything within her power to make sure that nothing happened to her husband. She testified on his behalf in court, I believe. She’s still with him to this day.
Because of this, and a few other issues, her sex drive is nil. If I didn’t initiate, it just didn’t occur to her that we were missing something. Her view of sex had become something as at best a chore, and at worst this horrible thing that she had to endure.
In the beginning, sex would sometimes end in her crying and being really really upset. I was stunned.
In addition to these issues, there were some others that were eventually solved by medication… although she hates it, she does realize that there is a need.
But in regards to sex… well, she loves me enough to make an effort, and over time it has become something that she likes. It’s not something she thinks of, and she doesn’t react to the normal sorts of things (no “oh, nice ass on that guy”, no “gosh, that story made me all horny”) that most do.
Also, she absolutely hates porn, with a purple passion. It has taken over 2 years now, of explaining and providing psychological proof that porn is not in itself this horrible thing. She still doesn’t like it, but she knows now that occasionally, she’s going to find a tape in the VCR. The flip side to that is that I don’t always induge myself when I get the urge… and I don’t try to get her to watch with me.
I think the baseline difference here though, is this: My girl cares enough about how I feel that she is willing to put herself though a bit of pain and heartache to get to a learning point.
I don’t think your wife is. I think she needs therapy, a lot of it. I think you’re not going to be happy, because without that she’s not going to want to be sexually ‘happy’. I suggest you talk to a therapist about her. A lot. Eventually the therapist will ask her to come in, even if it’s just to meet this person that is really screwing up your mind.
I wish you luck. I wish I could follow through with the silver lining I promised, but part of it hinges on your wife realizing that she has problems too. While you have issues (many of the same issues I have, I think, when it comes to sex), the issues that you do have are magnified and distorted by your wife and her (IMO much more massive) issues.
Keep us posted, and keep trying. But also be prepared… there are good chances you may wake up to some divorce papers. I hope not, as you seem truly in love with her, but I don’t know if the same is true for her.
Tristian,
I think I know a little of how your girl feels. I decided I wasn’t going to let the abuse continue even after the abuser was out of my life. I mean really… how long was I supposed to stay his victim? Forever? No way. (my abuser was my own father from about age 4 to age 22)
My husband and I have worked very hard at learning how our relationship works. He does not push me on the days when I am just not in the mood for sex and he does not pout, whine or question when I stop sex mid stream because something has made me uncomfortable. (Really… honestly assess your reaction to being told stop while in mid thrust and then having your wife just cry) He just is there for me and when I’m done being emotional we talk out whatever it was that bothered me… but not until I’m ready. I recognize the work he puts into our relationship. It sucks to be my husband some days.
In return I have learned to trust him completely. I know he won’t ever hurt me. That has allowed me to explore sex as something positive. I initiate and enjoy sex on a regular basis. We’ve even managed to find some porn I kinda like.
But this took YEARS… and is still ongoing. I have far fewer bad days now than ever before but I doubt they will ever completely go away.
I sympathize with the OP in that I realize sexual intimacy is an important part of most healthy marriages. Unfortunately this is not a healthy marriage and while the sexual problems are the biggest external symptom for DX2 they are not the core of the problems in the relationship. As I read the thread further there still seems to be a lot of bitterness towards his wife’s unwillingness to help herself and about the amount of work he percieves he has to do with no tangible gain yet in sight for him. I hope DX2 keeps on with his therapy and can lose this bitterness as that is only giving his wife fuel for not helping herself.
I hope that makes sense.