Plus there’s Meetup, though sometimes I wonder if the website will ever recover from its glory days pre-COVID.
I met some of the best friends of my life through Meetup. There are plenty of singles groups.
The problem with trying to strike up conversations with random strangers whom you find attractive is that there is a smallish subset of people (mostly young women) that are attractive to an awful lot of people, and they find it hard to get through their day without a lot of people trying to get their attention. If your interests tend towards men, or old women, or women who aren’t conventionally attractive, “striking up conversations with random attractive strangers” is a much better strategy than if you tend to be interested in conventionally attractive women.
We do that here also. (I’m in rural/farm country New York. Yes, there is such a thing.) But these conversations are very rarely sexually oriented, even as an undertext; and the person who answers briefly and keeps moving on almost never gets hassled about it. And even when I was considerably younger I didn’t, in this area, get catcalled on the street (though I have been elsewhere).
I did once have somebody come by a vineyard in which I was working alone and try to talk me into having sex with him on the grounds that his wife had just had a baby and wasn’t interested in sex at the moment. He did take no for an answer. (And at least he told me straight out that he was married. I do wonder how much longer that marriage lasted.) And I once got my breast grabbed on the street; by an apparently male child about 10 or thereabouts, who immediately ran away. It’s not like it never happened. But somebody being spoken to by a stranger around here in a normal public context, especially when others were around, wouldn’t expect it to turn into a hassle, whether they continued in a conversation or answered with a word or two and walked away. There are a whole lot of places where that isn’t true.
And, as I said – those general casual conversations don’t carry a sexual undertext. They’re not an attempt to start a conversation with the intent of getting a date. They’re casual comments while waiting in line, or something of that sort. If somebody’s walking at a good pace down the street, someone passing by might say hi, but they recognize that the other person’s going somewhere and don’t expect them to stop; especially if it’s a stranger. And all of this happens also between and among people of the same gender and of different generations; including between and among people who have no interest in sexual relationships with each other.
I’m sure that sometimes such casual conversations, between people who repeatedly see each other, turn gradually into acquaintance and then into friendship or possibly romantic/sexual relationships. But that isn’t, or doesn’t appear to be, the goal of the initial exchanges between strangers.
To paraphrase one thinker*: so many of us want to restore close-knit communities, yet so few of us want to restore what they entailed: implicit standards of behavior, some conformism in expressed beliefs, periodic mandatory socializing with those whose company we might not enjoy.
*…ok, someone I follow on X
There were people who didn’t fit into those close-knit social structures very well, either. Without the internet, and with travel being more economically burdensome in those days, they didn’t have the benefit of finding like minded people online. So if anything, they were even more socially ostracized than misfit people nowadays are.
My mom was 3rd or 4th generation in a Kibbutz, and communities don’t get much more tight knit then that. I’ve heard many stories from my grandparents about what life in the Kibbutz was like at the height of that sort of social structure actually existing (nowadays they are basically small towns with a very strict HOA), including stories about “misfits”, and things didn’t sound particularly great for them.
I don’t want to fall into the trap of generalizing outrageously so I’ll just stick to my experience and say that the women I’ve interacted with on dating apps are the main reason why I feel like I do, more than my exes.
The toxicity there is off the charts. Entitlement, cowardice, superficiality and hypocrisy are rampant. Lots of big words and lofty ideals but when the time comes to put them into practice, all I get are feeble excuses, sudden ghostings and pathetically transparent lies.
I do get matches regularly, and have gone on dates with about 20 women in the past two years. While I did have a couple of so-so flings, the experience has been generally… sickening, and I’m minding my language.
I’m a member of about 30 meetup groups and I participate in events regularly, though recently less than before.
I’ve had many great conversations with interesting people, and it’s certainly been a much more positive experience in all respects, except dating. There are a couple of women I’ve seen outside of meetup events afterwards but nothing came of it, apart again from pleasant discussions, which is of course a real plus in and of itself.
I haven’t really explored that, although I’ve gone out for a drink with colleagues a few times. I also go to the yoga studio several times a week but I can’t say that I socialize much there. Almost not all, actually.
I think maybe I didn’t describe what I’m talking about very well. What I’m saying is that you strike up conversations for the sake of striking up conversations. And if you think maybe it’s going well, then ask for a coffee date. With no expectations on either, and the point is to just strike up conversations and ask women out on coffee dates if things go well.
That’s the whole point. Too many men get it in their heads that women are somehow inscrutable and alien when it comes to dating, and get too wound up and don’t talk to them like they’re just people. What I’m talking about is a somewhat structured way to get over that. (I feel like I should publish it or something)
The whole idea is something sort of akin to the desensitization that they do with phobic people. The idea is that if you’re just striking up a conversation, and she’s not interested, as long as you were just trying to strike up a conversation, no harm no foul, and you’re not feeling rejected, etc… But as often as not, you’ll get a good response and you can chat for a minute. If it’s going well, then ask. If you get turned down, no biggie. It was only coffee, and you didn’t know this woman anyway.
And as you do this more, you’ll get better at striking up conversations, better at the actual conversations, and better at the asking for coffee dates. And when you do go for coffee dates, it’s just coffee so there’s no investment on your part. If it doesn’t go well, who cares?
It’s not some sort of predatory try-to-get-laid scheme at all. That’s 100% the point- you’re not supposed to have expectations the way I see it (and the way I did it). Just strike up conversations, and like anything, it’ll become commonplace and not strange or frightening. But at no point is the goal to get laid or do anything surreptitious. It’s all about just getting good and getting comfortable with striking up conversations and asking women out. And by extension, comfortable with getting rejected as well.
But the implication I’m getting is that there’s no reason to talk to women except either in the hope of getting to ask them out, or as practice for asking other women out.
Do you see the problem there?
I don’t know that I ever had any more trouble striking up conversations with women than men. Once the thought of asking someone out entered my mind it was a different story. It never got any better. I don’t want to call it a disability, but it is something that never clicked for me. I’m just lucky the right person approached me. I also see thorny_locust’s point. I’ve had plenty of enjoyable conversations with women I had no intention of asking out. Not that I didn’t wish I could get up the nerve a few of those times,
I suppose it could be framed as overcoming a basic life difficulty (namely, nervousness about talking to women) whose remediation will result in improving many aspects of interpersonal interaction in general. Not just for the individual making the effort, but for all of the people he interacts with in future.
But in that case, the individual needs to be making an effort to strike up low-stakes casual conversations with both women and men. And it might be enlightening for him to notice and think about how his conversational style is affected by the gender of the person he’s talking to.
If it’s only women that you’re constantly trying to recruit as your unpaid conversational-practice partners, then yeah, that seems potentially a bit disproportionately burdensome. Especially since it seems likely that the women bump has in mind are limited to the kinds of women that you’d consider for your personal dating pool.
If every shy guy tries that, that’s a lot of attractive young women getting constantly accosted by strangers in the hopes that they’ll serve as a resource to help the guy develop his dating potential. I mean, it’s good that you’re not trying to coerce them into something overtly romantic or sexual, and that you’re not getting mad and/or butthurt if they don’t want to pay attention to you. But it’s still a disproportionate targeting of attractive young women to perform the social service of building shy guys’ confidence.
ISTM it’s a better idea to practice talking to anybody you encounter, without limiting it just to the people you’d potentially hope for a coffee date with.
Pre-online dating, there were three options, and unlike other things killed-off by technology, they are still viable.
The Courtship developing out of a shared social connection. Requires patience, which is a good virtue to cultivate for its own sake.
The Set-up (aka blind date) arranged by well-meaning friends who have a gauge on your probable compatibility. This was more common than many people realize, and the reduction in friendships in modern society has taken its toll on romantic connection-building.
The Pick-up, an on the spot conversation followed by a request for her phone number, or an immediate date.
That third one was always the trickiest, and if you’re not comfortable with it, don’t worry: you still have the previous two options.
Most important is to look inward. If you want a girlfriend, is what you’re really saying is that you want to be a boyfriend yourself? And if that’s true, why not go all in and embrace your inner-Golden Retriever Boyfriend ?
Good read, thanks !
Let me help you there.
Catlady, Icequeen, old_anything_, spinster, lesbian, dyke (this is off the top of my head in my third language)
Men made up whole fucking dictionaries to describe women who aren’t receptive to their advances.
The OP is not an incel, though. He might be a volcel. Or he might be suffering depression. Or he might be taking a break.
Having read/skimmed this thread, and having read some similar threads on Reddit etc, I’m finding this all pretty interesting. I’ve been single since before Covid kicked in, but it hasn’t been my main focus since I’ve had a lot of trouble with housing.
Now I have finally got that sorted - hopefully - and I’m living somewhere I can feel secure and stay in forever, basically, the singleness has started hitting hard. I’m a middle aged straight male, by the way.
I’m shocked by the extent of men who have given up. I’m not pretty and and not charismatic and not wealthy and not even particularly functional, so I’m used to feeling hopeless about my chances. But from what I’ve seen, even guys who are, you know, normal are just noping out of the struggle.
This does not fill me with hope.
Here’s the thing, though: I have a very wide social circle and I know a lot of people and I have a lot of good friends. I could easily name a couple of dozen people, male and female, who would happily tell you what a fine human I am. I have no real problem meeting new people and I do so pretty regularly.
There are no available single women. Like, none. Not even ones I’m not attracted to. I have many female friends, all of whom are in relationships or don’t want to be. Or, not with me, anyway. I meet a woman, they’re either taken or they immediately go into defence mode, making sure I know that they’re not interested. That can be done politely or rudely, but it’s literally the only response I ever get. And it doesn’t matter whether I’m interested or not, it’s just the default setting as far as I can tell.
So, what am I supposed to do? I have a male friend who has spent a lot of effort trying to get me on the apps, because he believes I could do all right there. Personally I have serious doubts; people are extremely judgey these days anyway, I get enough of that just going about my business, I don’t have much interest in exposing myself to more female obnoxiousness. And not much faith that I’d experience anything else.
And that’s where we are. I wouldn’t say I’ve given up or disengaged, but I have no real idea how I could move forward here. I don’t need to be told that I should expand my social circle, I know that but I’m actually very happy with the friends I have.
So, what do I do? Single women around the world prefer large carnivorous wild animals to me, right, I know that already. So, what do I do? I’m pretty bored with masturbation by now and I really ache for friendly touch. I get a bit overwhelmed with hugs from friends, even that much contact just confuses me nowadays. It’s nice, but it also makes me sad that anything more than that is forever off limits to me.
Coming up on five years since my last relationship ended, and I have not had any interest at all since then. And yes I have tried, and never got any further than the friend zone. Women like me, they’re perfectly happy going to art galleries with me, and movies, and to see bands, they just don’t see me as a lover.
So, I don’t hate them, I love my female friends. I get, and I’m even quite sympathetic to, why women are pissed off by males, but IT’S NOT ME. I am not doing the things that you dislike. I’m not. Collective punishment is literally a crime against humanity, you know?
I’ve spent a lot more time writing this than I intended, and I’ll stop before I get more upset. I don’t know what point I’m even trying to make here, other than: I get why both sides are upset, but it doesn’t help. Picking fights is dumb. Attacking the other side is dumb. We’re all better off united than divided.
If you have female friends who are happy to go to art galleries and movies with you, then i don’t think the man/bear thing is relevant to your dating woes. Which is not to dismiss them – that’s a real problem. But i don’t think it’s the same thing at all. If you want to discuss it here (and maybe that’s painful and you’d rather not) I’d recommend starting a new thread.
I don’t want to be mean, but it’s rare that I see a question so immediately followed by its answer. You can’t find women who are single and looking for a relationship–so go to the place where there are single women looking for a relationship. It does mean risking what you call (and ngl it’s a little cringy) “female obnoxiousness,” but rejection, even graceless rejection, is always a risk.
And ask that guy for a brutal assessment. What does he think you can do to become more attractive?
I mentioned this earlier in the thread, that straight women tend to spend a helluva lot more time making themselves attractive than straight men do. It’s a massive cultural imbalance. But it’s not necessary. If you’re finding that most straight single women aren’t seeing you as sexually attractive, there’s a pretty good chance there are things you can do to change that.
It might cost money, it might cost time, but if you’re wanting to find a relationship, don’t neglect the “horny monkeys with monkey bodies and monkey hormones” aspect of dating.
Once I hit middle age, there weren’t a lot of available single men, either.
This may well be an even bigger issue for men than for women; I don’t know. But everybody’s dating pool shrinks as time goes on – because most of the people who want to be in serious relationships find them; and a lot of them stay in them.
(For men, I gather, it eventually goes in the other direction – because eventually there are more widows than widowers. Some of both don’t want to remarry, of course; but it’s my impression that the effect still happens.)
I have had this conversation with real-life female friends, and they’ve been shocked by things that have been said to me. The men are not. I’ll leave it at that.
This is the part that flabbergasts me. That simply is not the world I live in.
I know lots of single women. Both of my wife’s sisters, for example. And, while I’m married and thus don’t pursue women, you say that before you make any advances women inform you that they aren’t on the market; I’ve never seen a woman preemptively do that, when I was single or now.
I mean, there are slightly more women than men in this country, and most relationships are monogamous, so basic math should prove to you that there are in fact single women out there.