What I meant was that, in the early stages you try to assess whether you’re compatible. But no two persons are a perfect fit, so you see what differences do not matter and can be overcome. That’s what I meant by positioning myself, trying to see what I can change in me to make things easier, without losing myself in the process.
When you make a mistake at that stage, it can lead to serious problems. I understood that Gini craved safety and affection but I missed the fact that she also wanted a strong and ambitious man. When I realized this, our roles were already set and her fear of conflict made her full expectations impossible to decipher because she, understandably given her history but unfortunately, prefered being silent than risking a confrontation.
Great post, thanks.
Just to be clear, yes it is.
At first, I had the feeling that I had failed again at being clear and that I was going to come off as an asshole. The numerous positive comments and insightful posts I’ve read since yesterday are a relief.
How do you propose someone meet people then? At some point, you DO have to get outside your comfort zone and go talk to them, whether it’s in a bar, at church, at work, at the grocery, at the park, etc… I’m still not sure how men are expected to meet women and talk to them, if you know, talking to them is off limits?
My point was that if you have trouble with that because you’re putting too much of your own weight on it, the way to get past that is to just do it without expectations to the point where you don’t put any weight on it. That’s all. And it’s got benefits to women in an unexpected way; if you do actually talk to a lot of women without expectations, you actually get to see them as people, not as some inscrutable “other” gender that you don’t understand.
I’m not presenting it as women = prey, but I do believe dating is absolutely a game that has unspoken rules and expectations (or a very intricate dance that you’re not taught, if you prefer), and the way to be successful (however you define that) is to figure all that out and do it well.
Pretending to make casual conversation in order to sneakily get close enough to ask out a woman who has shown no sign of interested in dating SHOULD BE off limits.
Why can’t you do one of two things:
Interact with women like you do with any other human being, and if there is a connection that arises while discussing other interests, ask them out
Go to events or places that are specifically designed for single people to meet each other, where you know that any women you encounter are there for the same purpose
I believe that the above is key, for a number of reasons. And maybe I’m misunderstanding you and taking you too literally. So please correct me if I have. That is, I wouldn’t ask someone out unless I had already had some conversations with her and thought that we wouldn’t be taken aback by that.
I think a problem now is that romcoms promote the pursuit and the asking out of the blue of the target.
It’s not something I would do unless I was at a bar or some scenario specifically for that purpose. But that’s just me.
I had my eyes opened to this a few years ago, watching a co-worker, an attractive young woman, coming into work. It was near eight o’clock, and I could tell she was trying to get to the time clock. But she walked past a group of male customers, one of whom tried to banter with her. When she kept walking, he said, “Ah, where you going? Doncha want to come back and talk to me?” Nothing crude or disrespectful or abusive, but I noted that he thought he could demand, or perhaps even was owed, her attention. I thought, “Dude. Read the cues. She’s purposefully walking away, she clearly has something in mind and it ain’t listening to your game.” Whenever I hear the word “microaggression”, I remember that incident, and realizing how often women encounter that shit.
Talking to women in circumstances in which they show no signs of being interested in conversation is what’s off limits.
There are plenty of circumstances in which conversation is normal and expected. Randomly on the street is not one of them. At the grocery to someone showing no signs of interest in conversation is not one of them. (Where do you think they’ve got the mushrooms? or Wow, this is a long line, or something of that sort, isn’t out of line; but if the answer is nonexistent or short, don’t get pissed off and don’t continue. You have no idea what else has happened otherwise in that day, or in her life.) At the park is only one of them if the person shows some sign of interest in conversation. At the bar is fine if it’s a singles bar; not fine at other types of bar if the woman looks like she just wants to have a quiet drink on her own. If you can’t tell, leave her alone and go find a singles bar.
Or better yet – what sort of life are you living in which women are never present in circumstances in which you’d ordinarily be talking with them about things other than dating? Try to change that. Go find an activity you like that’s being done by groups that aren’t all male.
See, this is just one of the many problems (she tut-tutted, glaring through her lorgnette) exacerbated by the decline of social life conducted through reciprocal hospitality among individuals and families in their private capacity.
People in general used to throw parties and host dinners and just generally provide occasions where other people could meet, mingle and socialize as private individuals. (Some of us still do, but we stopped inviting the people who never reciprocate, so if you never get asked to parties anymore, maybe that’s why?) Hosts made an effort to bring people together who they thought would enjoy each other’s company. Guests made an effort to converse with other guests and help everybody enjoy the event.
Nowadays the vibe is much more “every socializer for themself”. People go out in pre-acquainted groups for “pay your own way” visits to restaurants and clubs and other commercial entertainment providers, where it’s not a breach of etiquette to ignore strangers if you want to. There are no social obligations or duties, beyond paying what you owe for the use of the commercial entertainment.
Naturally, that’s going to get everybody concentrating on what they want to do, in order to get what they consider their “money’s worth” out of their commercially-based social life. Not surprisingly, that makes it a lot harder to meet people who haven’t already decided that they want to meet you. And getting random strangers to decide that they want to meet you is a challenging task, unless you’re the latest boy band sensation or something.
People are a lot less social in other ways, see Bowling Alone
among other things
Putnam used bowling as an example to illustrate this; although the number of people who bowled had increased in the last 20 years, the number of people who bowled in leagues had decreased. If people bowled alone, they did not participate in the social interaction and civic discussions that might occur in a league environment.
And the decline in community spaces.
And not knowing who your neighbors are.
There’s been a pretty dramatic cultural shift in a short amount of time.
It’s just hard to meet people these days. I wouldn’t dispute that as a real challenge to people who are looking for either romance or friends. I’m married but we’ve struggled to find people to add to our friendship circle. It’s more like our friendships exist in discrete units that don’t intersect. So we have friends but we’re seeing a different friend every weekend without much social overlap. Which means we’re not really getting deep engagement with any of them. Which means, honestly, we’re kinda lonely.
I almost said, ‘Throw a neighborhood party and invite all the neighbors, of all ages and genders’ – but while that’s still occasionally done around here (though even here less often than it used to be), I was afraid of getting an answer along the lines of ‘My neighbors would all think I was really weird for doing that and they wouldn’t come!’
Nobody was or is required to go to a party. But people who do go to a party expect to talk to other people at a party; and it’s not rude to start talking to somebody else at a party. (Though it is rude to insistently follow them around the whole time after they’ve excused themselves to go to the john or get another drink and then headed off in another direction instead of returning to continue talking with you.)
Not all of it, however, if it’s a woman you just happened to have met (as shown below) “at the grocery, at the park”, without some reasonable context, just doesn’t seem quite right to me.
I may be wrong here, but I don’t know if I think it’s bad for people to approach others with the intent of possibly having the chance to get to know them. I think the problem is that it’s almost expected for people, (men especially) to take a “no” personally.
If someone hadn’t done that I might still be single and approaching 60. It’s harder for some of us, but that doesn’t mean we’re entitled to anything. Dunno how I’d do today. I think I’d probably get some first dates on dating apps, but second dates would probably be just as rare as they were in my twenties. That’s on me.
You don’t. That’s what makes it challenging to get random strangers to spontaneously decide that they want to meet you.
If you’re not going to rudely assume that you can demand a random stranger’s attention at your own convenience, your options are pretty much limited to the following:
Situations where random strangers have already agreed to consider one another’s requests for attention. Namely, singles events, dating sites, and the like.
Situations where random strangers are interacting for a non-social reason (work, other life duties, what have you), and are struck by a spontaneous mutual liking that makes them want to pay attention to each other.
In the first type of situation, you have to be distinctive and appealing enough, in a crowd of random strangers, to inspire a desire to meet you in at least one random stranger that you in turn would like to meet. That can be challenging.
In the second type of situation, getting a random stranger to want to meet you is even more challenging, because there’s really nothing you can do to bring about that off-chance of spontaneous liking. Truly mutual “clicking” between strangers in non-social situations is pretty rare.
In more traditional types of private socializing, on the other hand, curated groups of random acquaintances and strangers (curated by the hosts) were brought together for the specific purpose of paying attention to one another in a social way. Even if a random stranger at that dinner party didn’t already want to meet you personally, she was going to meet you (and everybody else there) and spend some time socializing with you.
Everybody attending such events, as thorny_locust noted, had tacitly agreed to devote some time and attention to any and all of the other attendees, rather than just going about their own individual business. (There were occasional exceptions, of course, when one attendee disapproved of another attendee for some reason and requested mutual acquaintances not to introduce them, as that was a person whom they did not care to know, as the expression was. But that sort of shunning was a fairly Big Deal socially, and was not lightly undertaken.)
That was how you got to meet random strangers and talk to them, without needing to be so instantly attractive that they spontaneously chose to seek you out to pay attention to you.
Where do y’all live? Because I’m in Michigan and random strangers talk to one another all the time. Yes, even on the street. The idea that people can’t strike up a conversation with a stranger - that’s just not the culture where I live. I grew up in a rural part of the state and now I live in a metro area that feels pretty suburban, only with a lot of traffic.
Now I’m actually a shy person. I will not start up a conversation with a stranger. But if they talk to me, I will happily talk to them.
I make a big distinction between starting a friendly conversation and harassment. And if someone starts a friendly conversation that turns into a request for a date, I will not be offended as long as they accept my “no.”
Heh. I still throw parties. Not all the time, but it’s something i do. I get invited to parties, too. I also meet people at square dance events. (I go to “single-friendly” square dances, so i often end up partnering someone i didn’t already know, and it’s customary to make small talk between squaring up and when the dance begins.)
My advice to singles looking to date is
try dating sites. I haven’t used them, but i know an awful lot of people who have found partners that way.
get involved in activities that encourage social interaction between participants. That could be social dancing, or an adult ed language class, or working at a soup kitchen, or… The key things is to pick an activity you will enjoy even if you don’t find anyone to date. Both because you will have to invest a lot of time, and ought to enjoy it, and also because then you are likely to have something in common with other people there.
make friends and meet people who aren’t potential dates. There are a lot more of them out there, and it gives you practice socializing. Also, non-romantic friends are good for mental health and are generally a plus. As a side benefit, some of them might invite you to parties or introduce you to suitable singles. But even if they don’t, at least you have a social life.