This is a 2nd warning for the thread as you’ve specifically ignored the prior moderation.
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With @thorny_locust’s caveat in mind, I have written here before that women don’t primarily want nice guys.
Of course, they don’t want abusers either, but it seems to me that they first and foremost want a guy who brings something(s) very concrete to the table. What those somethings are vary widely from woman to woman but they absolutely have to be there. If the man is nice too, that’s a huge plus, but not enough in and of itself.
My ex-wife surprised me a few days ago when she told me that I had been too nice to her. It shocked me because if I remember correctly, she was constantly accusing me of being narcissitic and abusive. She clarified that she would have wanted me to be more assertive, more of a leader.
That hit very close to home because I suspect that this lack of assertiveness on my part may have played a role in the failure of my following relationship.
When I met Gini she was at an all-time low (abusive father, abusive ex, abusive colleagues and health problems). I provided her with stability and safety as I thought that was what she’d been missing all her life. But I slowly realized that she was also definitely attracted to the more traditional masculine traits, which I either didn’t have or didn’t care for. She craved safety and affection, sure, but she also wanted me to be decisive and strong in a way I wasn’t really.
I think some men are definitely trying to redefine what it is to be a man in order to adapt to the new reality that you describe. It isn’t easy, though.
Partly because changing millenia of ingrained gender roles cannot be done overnight, but also because women are not always clear about what they themselves want, or rather, they’re still attached to some old-style values and it’s the man’s job to try and distinguish what must be tossed and what should be kept.
When you consider that no two women are the same, it becomes impossibly complex to position oneself, apart from platitudes like “don’t be evil”.
All in all, there’s sometimes a very fine line between safe and boring, demonstrative and emotional, confident and arrogant, sensitive and weak, caring and controlling, patient and indecisive, strong and oppressive, open-minded and wishy-washy.
Failing to identify the line can be catastrophic. Some women, like Gini, are definitely put off by men who appear weak, just as by those who are insensitive.
That’s what I was trying to get at by starting this thread. I do feel that I still have something to give, that I can still provide some of the things that some women want. The mixed signals that I get muddle the waters and I don’t know what to think anymore, apart again from useless platitudes.
True. But what consitutes “healthy masculinity”, bearing in mind that not all the points you list will appeal to all women ?
My father gave me an example of that that I’ve tried to follow. He was definitely not playing the alpha male role, nor was he sporty, but he was strong in other ways, very much like @Spice_Weasel’s husband : grounded, reliable and hard-working.
Absolutely, see below.
Growing up, there was little conversation about neurodivergence and much less help. It took me a while to realize that my reactions were atypical, and usually when I did it was because a woman rubbed my nose in it, and usually not in a nice way.
But I don’t really want to discuss this because I haven’t been diagnosed. I don’t want to use this possibility as an excuse to avoid facing the fact that I’m not always, well, nice.
Actually, I’ve spent all of my adult life listening to women. Men’s discussions bored me. The thing is, I thought that gave me a good grip on what they wanted. Now, I’m really not sure at all. Experience has certainly shown that I’ve missed crucial cues too often.
Let’s say that among the things that I thought were right, I did everything I could. But I did make many mistakes. And I’m no angel, of course.
That’s the problem I have with the meme. Sure it is a striking illustration of a terrible problem. But it was absolutely bound to lead to toxic discussions, which is exactly what happened. It offered no solutions, so the only thing that people could do was blame each other.
You’re right.
There are alternative paths and that’s what several people are saying. There’re not for everyone because we all have our very specific experiences.
It is, but the thought that I don’t need to have a woman in my life, as much as I want to, has been liberating.
Last weekend, I was sightreading (badly) Chopin’s Nocturne n°2 and at one point, I got a few chord changes just right and those gorgeous harmonies were right under my fingers. I couldn’t help but whisper “beautiful”. It was a moment of pure happiness.
I’ve also come up with a (flexible) travel list for the next 10 years. There are still so many things that I want to see and that I can do on my own.
Finally, I’m very popular at work, which is also definitely a boost to my ego.
In other words, I have plenty of paths to fulfilment that are still open, with or without a woman in my life.
Gini used to do this thing that I loved.
In the mornings when she woke up, she’d slowly reach out for my hand under the sheets. She’d hold it without moving for a couple of minutes. Then suddenly, she’d turn around to face me with her gorgeous blue eyes wide open, whispering “Bonjour, mon amour”.
Our relationship quickly turned dysfunctional after an breathtakingly beautiful start and it is, unfortunately, a good thing that we broke up. But of course, I’d love to live something like this again.
Several factors make me think that it is unlikely. My age, my quirks, the fact that real love is something one experiences rarely in life, and first and foremost all the defiance, fear and misunderstandings that we’ve described in this thread. All of that speaks against it. That’s why I’d rather withdraw, to avoid hurting and being hurt because of things that are out of my control.
But of course, I’d love to live something like this again.
thorny_locust has it right. I don’t mean a nice guy as in someone who is kind, considerate, etc. The actual term “nice guy” applies to a definite personality type that most women don’t find appealing because it is insincere and indicative of a weak personality that says, “I will be completely subservient and do anything and everything for you so that you will want me.”
It occurs to me that nobody expects men to fall for “nice girls.” I’ve never heard a woman say, “I’m kind, I don’t talk shit about men, why isn’t that enough?” Our society takes it for granted that if a straight woman wants to find romance, being nice isn’t enough: she also needs to do things to make herself attractive to the kind of guy she’s interested in. We take it for granted that straight guys want a woman who’s hot, who’s feminine, who’s bringing more to the mating game than a lack of cruelty.
Of course, most guys don’t want to get together with a woman who’s an asshole. Being a “nice girl” is necessary but not sufficient.
I think that’s true for most women as well. Being a “nice guy” (not the idiom, the literal meaning) is necessary for most straight women looking for a man, but it’s not sufficient. They also want someone who’s hot, who’s masculine, who’s bringing more to the mating game than a lack of cruelty.
I confess it took me a ridiculously long time to internalize that. I didn’t ever blame women for not being interested in me; I just didn’t understand viscerally that “being interested in guys” could be a thing.
I think there are some equivalents. Maybe “The Sweet Girl”, a girl who is very easy going and doting might think she’s a real prize for a guy. It is similar but different. I feel like that comes up from time to time, just not as often as the “nice guy” schtick.
Sorry, I was trying to stay out of this, but I do think there is some equivalent to the “Nice Guy” among women.
No one thing is going to be enough in itself. “Genuinely nice” isn’t enough in itself, no; but nothing else is, either. And “genuinely nice” is on quite a lot of women’s must-have lists. The fact that all of those lists will have more than one item on them doesn’t mean that all the items on those lists don’t matter, or that one matters more than the others.
I think that it’s possible that your ex-wife is messed up. Some people are. The likelihood of being messed up has not in my experience been connected to one gender more than another.
Well, that’ll mess you up, all right, whatever gender you are. Some people overcome it. Not everybody can.
Are you seriously trying to position yourself so as to appeal to everybody? That’s impossible. And it should not be possible, because people vary and ought to vary.
“Don’t be evil” is not a platitude, except as Google uses it. And I strongly advise not “trying to position yourself”; but instead trying to be the best version of what’s actually yourself that you can, and trying to find someone who wants to be in a relationship with that person. Yes, for some of us that’s hard, and we may not find that person. But trying to lie about who you are in order to attract somebody who doesn’t actually want to be with you is unlikely to ever work out well.
Again, nothing will appeal to all women. Such a being does not exist, and can’t.
I know a number of men who exhibit what I would call “healthy masculinity”. They exhibit it in widely different fashions, ranging from the little quiet guy who loves cats to the large loud one who goes in for hunting, beer drinking, and barbecue (and also loves cats); and including quite a number of other variations. What they seem to me to have in common is that they don’t worry about whether they’re being masculine or not: they’re certain enough of it that they’re not concerned about their presentation. [ETA: most of them are also happily married.]
I’m a woman who has all of my life done some things coded as masculine and not done some things coded as feminine. But my attitude ever since I was a small child has been ‘this must be a thing that girls/women do. Because here I am, a girl/woman, and I’m doing it’. It seems to me that the men I’m thinking of have the equivalent attitude: ‘this must be a thing that men do, because I’m a man, and I’m doing it.’
I think any discussion of this subject is going to attract some toxic comments. But the alternative is never discussing it. We (as a society) have tried that, it doesn’t work. We need to have the discussions.
I think that the equivalent realization has also been liberating for a whole lot of women.
I also think we’d be better off, overall, if nearly everybody lived alone for a while. All too many people, of any gender, get married because they’re afraid to be alone. It’s not a good reason.
Many people, of any gender, who have that realization eventually do get married; having become, while on their own, somebody who attracts people worth marrying. Some people don’t, but nevertheless have satisfying and useful lives.
That’s because a woman is viewed as a prize to be won, so obviously you want to win a “good” prize by doing what you’re supposed to. “I met all the requirements; where is my reward?”.
A woman meanwhile is meant to make the reward pool attractive enough that high quality men compete for her, at which point she can pick the winner.
It’s a fucked up way for men and women to look at each other or at the dating market, and nowadays we all know that, so openly saying the above is no longer in vogue.
But if you read many of the complaints about the dating market, you realize that they make no sense in the context of consenting adults on equal terms navigating a relationship together. They make perfect sense when considered through the lens of this antiquated view of the relationship between men and women.
So to those making such complaints about the way men and women interact, I recommend changing your lens.
Right. Just be yourself, do things you like to do, and find people who are into that. Don’t try to fit what someone else is looking for.
No, it isn’t. Being a provider is not going to be enough. Being a good person, nice is not going to be enough. Too many distractions. If you don’t have the emotional connection, you should not take this on.
So this is not a level up message. Men should be pickier. The relationship is not going to last without the connection. So don’t start one if you don’t think that is sufficient. Move on and find another woman. There are as many women out there as men, find a more suitable partner.
I think it’s all inter-related with men’s confidence.
I mean, if you (the generic male ‘you’) are unsuccessful with women, that’s going to make you self-conscious and anxious about dating/talking to women. So you’re likely to, for lack of a better term, overthink it and analyze why you were unsuccessful.
Many men come to the conclusion that it’s something they did, in the sense of a specific action or event that was somehow repellent, and caused them to be unsuccessful. So they’ll go way out of their way to be ‘nice’ and do what they think women are going to like, and what they’ve been told women like- being courteous, etc…
The problem is that they’re looking at it like it’s a video game or something, and there’s a code you enter to unlock women, and if they can get that code right, then women will like them, etc… They usually imagine this involved looking, acting and smelling a certain way, and going to certain restaurants, etc. That’s why that pickup artist stuff was so compelling to many men like that- it basically purports to give you the cheat codes.
What they don’t realize is that it’s not like that; it’s much more loosey-goosey than that- being confident, being sure of yourself, being your own authentic self, even if that self is kind of an asshole or is goofy, etc., is much more important with most women than following the exact right script and doing the exact right actions in the right order.
And not incidentally, that’s why my suggestion on Reddit was to essentially keep it small. Just talk to them, and if it works out, ask them out for an extremely low stakes date. That way, if you get rejected, it’s no big deal, AND if you’re successful, it’s also no big deal. Over time, you’ll get to where you’re very confident and self-assured in doing so, and that is compelling to women, not setting up a big set-piece date at an expensive restaurant.
And full disclosure, I’m not just the owner, I’m a client, in a sense. This is basically how I got over my own dating anxiety, and it worked very, very well. I went from someone who gave off vibes of desperation to someone who was interesting because I didn’t care- in essence women were curious what was going on with me as to why I was so confident/unconcerned if they said yes or no.
I think that’s a very good critique. 
That’s definitely an interesting analysis. I think it makes sense.
What I thought as a teenager wasn’t that women should be a prize; it was that people should be able to, I dunno, look at each others’ souls and choose someone who was a wonderful human being based on a spiritual connection. Physical intimacy would naturally follow from that spiritual connection.
Accordingly, I didn’t do anything to make myself physically attractive, and I didn’t admit that maybe I was attracted to certain women in part for their physicality. I ignored the fact that we’re all (or most of us) horny monkeys with monkey brains and monkey hormones, and that that’s a perfectly legit part of the dating process.
I think a lot of folks who see themselves as “nice guys” have at least part of this view going on; and if they could acknowledge that women are also horny monkeys with monkey brains and monkey hormones, it might demystify some of the dating process.
I think that the problem for women (I’m a guy), is not that some guy wants to “strike up a conversation and ask them out for coffee”. I think that the problem is women get that a lot, and inappropriately, and they don’t know what the outcome of a rejection will be, and they probably have to do some mental calculation and analysis every fucking time.
I’m 6’ 3" and I weigh about 220 lbs. If most times that I was out and about, I got approached frequently by a 7’ 300lb person with an unknowable, unpredictable set of reactions to a refusal, I would be from bothered-to-fearful by it too.
And one other thing. Women aren’t prey.
A post was merged into an existing topic: SyncoSmalls trocking thread
I see this thread as overwhelmingly positive, see below.
brilliant! it’s much easier to listen to what women are saying (I choose the bear) if you can imagine the constant 7 foot 300 person out there every time you walk down the street.
so many good posts in this thread: overwhelmingly positive thanks to lots of good people and good moderation.
Yes, exactly. It is 100% about mindset. This is not a game to be won, this is about two unique human beings building a life together.
And while all the romantic feelings are nice, the attraction and great sex or whatever you’re looking for, they are not what sustains a relationship.
I’m thinking of a song that reminds me of my husband.
I’m watching you go, it’s like spying on hope ever onward with more to burn
Giving your hands and your heart to the wheel of the world, though it fights each turn
But you do not give up so easily
That’s how I know you won’t surrender me
You rise and meet the day
It’s all I need, it’s all I need to know,
Jesus, I’m gonna cry now.
While that’s true, it’s pretty difficult, absent arranged marriages or the like, to get a relationship started without them. I think a lot of nice guys don’t realize that.
That’s probably true for most people. I wasn’t particularly attracted to my husband when we first met, I just liked him as a person, and deep friendship turned to something more. It was only later that I realized he is a really beautiful man. If you look at who I’ve crushed on or dated in the early part of my life there was really no unifying factor of conventional attractiveness. It was all about personality for me.
I don’t really know how other people work.