I don’t think that’s a term people use. She is free t do what she wants. We’re free to say she’s perhaps “misguided.” But becoming a nun for those reasons seems to lack the public complaining part that I associate with incels.
So if she posted on a public forum like this one, she would be crossing the line into public complaining.
Plus the “incel” term didn’t just come up out of the rocks, it was a term self-applied by bitter dudes on Reddit. There was never a real female component to it aside from “Them damn women…” So it never really became a term for relationship-less women.
Granted, we already had numerous disparaging terms for single women out of their 20s anyway: Old maid, cat lady, man hater, yadda yadda.
You quoted a part of my post, but I’m legitimately wondering whether you read the post you quoted. I am certain that my answer to this question is abundantly clear from the examples I gave.
Please read them again, and then if you’re still confused, explain why.
Yes, that’s public complaining. But it would depend on what she says. As with men, there are plenty of perfectly legitimate and understandable reasons to decide to avoid dating. All we know of your hypothetical is she “chose to become a nun and join a convent after a disappointing relationship.” That seems far short of the obnoxious behavior of incels.
If we’re talking about incels, it’s worth remembering that the term was coined by a woman:
But originally it just referred to what it’s literally short for: people who were involuntarily celibate. That’s a perfectly legitimate thing to be sad about, and it’s perfectly fine for people to talk about that, and to commiserate with others about it, and to look for strategies to end a state of affairs that they don’t like.
What we think of as “incels” today is something very different: it’s when men blame women as a group for their lack of sex. It’s super gross, it’s unhealthy, and it’s dangerous.
I don’t think the OP is doing exactly that. But he’s also not taking personal responsibility for his lack of a love life. Instead, he’s blaming a society in which relationships are “utterly poisoned.” That’s not nearly as bad as what incels do, but it’s still messed up.
Good to know. Incels invented by a woman, Man & Bear invented by a man… what IS this world coming to?
He is taking responsibility for his lack of a love life, because he’s voluntarily withdrawing. Whenever we are between partners, we have to do certain things to change that typically. Then he reads about man/woman/bear and other material about all of these bad interactions, and it’s taken the fun out of it. (My take anyway.)
Now the term “incel” is also thrown at men involuntarily by women for various reasons. As an insult, “you can’t get laid” or whatever. So it’s not simply applied by bitter men to themselves. It’s applied to men against their will. Which is more or less happening here.
Again, I’m unconvinced that you’re reading what you’re quoting.
Sorry, I won’t be able to answer all of the posts that this thread has already generated.
I know it is the case. I may be too sensitive about this, sure.
It is, as uninteresting as it might be. I don’t claim that other men should do as I do, just that I’m not surprised when they do.
I’m certainly not blaming all women for wanting something that should be so obvious, although I am blaming some of the ones I’ve known for some of the things they’ve done.
And it’s not that dating is too much work per se that’s the problem, it is the fact that we’re all too quick to react to perceived red flags even when there are none, and in the process hurt people who sincerely meant no harm. On and on and on.
I shouldn’t have talked about her. She’s a colleague with whom I’ve had several interesting discussions. We disagree on pretty much everything but she’s smart and her opinions are well-informed by experience. She most definitely doesn’t claim to speak for all women.
And just to be clear, there’s no subtext of possible romantic relationship. She has a boyfriend, is much too young for me and has opinions that I cannot share.
I am aware of this.
I am definitely going to keep on engaging with women from professional, intellectual and generally human points of view because I still have so much to learn from them in these respects. Just not romantically, unless I stumble upon someone truly special and we miraculously manage not to let our past trauma poison whatever good might happen (not holding my breath).
I completely agree with your point, but the risk of potential harm, both for women and myself, that seems to come from building a healthy relationship currently outweighs them.
This.
Women are justifiably afraid of men for all sorts of unfortunately real and legitimate reasons.
But I’ve had several relationships end because the women involved had trust issues due to past experiences that they could not overcome. ‘Sorry, you did everything right but…’
And the pattern is continuing, now. Many send extremely confusing signals because of past trauma I had zero influence on, leading me to suspect they’re playing because of my own bad experiences. Then, potential new relationships enter a death spiral. It’s just not worth it.
Fair enough. Bad choice of words on my part.
I’ve already addressed this above.
Good point.
Let’s say that disengaging totally from emotional involvement is the only smart thing to do for me (and hopefully at the moment, who knows).
It is really sad if I come across like this but I understand where you’re coming from.
I’m pretty sure that I’m neurodivergent in some ways. When I was younger, that didn’t prevent me from having success with women because I happened to look good, could hold a conversation, make them laugh and most importantly make them feel safe and respected. But I also remember many being put off and finding me ‘vaguely weird’. Perhaps this aspect is taking over as my looks and my wit are slowly fading away.
You know what else takes all the fun out of it? Getting sexually assaulted. (My take anyway).
I’m so sorry if hearing about this stuff bothers some men (I’m not), but as a man, I am much more concerned about the harmful shit that is actually done to women, rather than the jnnocent men who nevertheless get offended or upset when this stuff is talked about.
Their discomfort does not outweigh the actual harm being done to women.
You find “incel” in there for me then.
With this change in wording, I have no problem at all with what you’re saying–and as I said above, I genuinely want you to have a happy and fulfilling life, with or without romantic relationships.
You, on the other hand, have got to be kidding me.
Where did LHoD say the OP was an incel?
I’m told that I’m not reading what I’m quoting.
No one is arguing this.
Maybe in this bit, that he quoted?
(emphasis added)
Oh wait hold up: that’s me saying exactly the opposite–again, in a passage that he quoted.
When I said I didn’t think he was reading what he quoted, he responded by quoting something different and challenging me to find “incel” in the different thing.
I’m worried it’s performance art.
I mean, that very much does appear to be that case, based on your responses.
I know quite a few people who appear to have won it.
I didn’t win it, and quit; but that wasn’t because of fear and bigotry. It’s because I decided that I’m both an unusual taste and a late starter, and that by the time I was ready to get married the people I actually might have married had generally already gotten married and were staying that way.
And not having married doesn’t mean that I don’t have male friends who I trust; which I do.
Also a very good point.
I’m not sure what situations you’re getting these reactions in, and I don’t know how you’re presenting yourself. All I can say is that I don’t see this when people are ordinarily walking around the streets here, or when somebody sits down at the next table in a restaurant or in the library or whatever. It probably varies depending on where you are, and also on whether you’re picking the closest possible seat in an otherwise empty waiting area, and things of that sort.
They’re not any more poisoned than they ever were. The difference is that now the women are talking about it in public.
And they were never poisoned between all women and all men; and aren’t now.
It wasn’t originally phrased as a desire to avoid people who fear and hate you. It was originally phrased as an intention to have no emotional involvement with women at all.
The OP is apparently emotionally involved with his daughters, and quite possibly with other women. He’s just decided, at 50, to stop actively pursuing romantic connections. I think his reasoning for doing so is somewhat flawed; but I don’t think it’s dumb. I do think that, if he wants, he could find connections in situations that are reassuring to the women. I also think that if somebody’s afraid of you on a deserted street, that doesn’t mean that they hate you.
This. She’s talking with you, isn’t she?
Did you ask her what she thinks you can do?
Did you consider that what she was saying might not be that you personally hadn’t done enough about your own behavior, but that men in general need to also work on improving the behavior of other men, and not enough of them are doing so?
If enough of these paragons also speak up to other men and boys, it would help. Some actually do. We need more to do so.
And again: a whole lot of people do find good relationships. So to present the whole situation as hopeless strikes me as inaccurate.
Not what I’ve been seeing. I’ve been seeing that both lasting relationships and those that don’t last are entirely normal; and that the ones that don’t last often fail for reasons having nothing to do with one partner being afraid of the other or one (or both) deliberately mistreating the other, but just due to a mismatch to start with or to a mismatch that occurs later because of people maturing in different directions.
How people react to pictures has little or nothing to do with how they react to people they’ve gotten to know.
If that were her only reason for becoming a nun, yes. If she were a devout follower of the religion in question, then no.
But in either case it would bother me if she said she were becoming a nun because all relationships with men were essentially poisonous.
– @Moonrise’s post #51 clarifies some of his meaning. I’m leaving the above, written as I read through the thread, partly as a response to others.
And I’m sincerely happy for them.
You know, I still get teary-eyed when I see some of those cheesy marriage proposal videos…
I’ve always been ultra careful not to do that. I also overtake women as quickly as I can if I happen to be walking behind one in an otherwise empty street, leaving ample room between us while doing so.
Stealing this. It describes me well.
I’d just like to offer my experiences, if anyone cares. I’m obviously as bias as anyone, so if there’s faulty logic, please inform me.
I’m not completely celibate, but I simply have a difficult time dealing with finding physical female partners that I’m into enough to risk anything that might happen after sex. I’m also not exactly the most sexually charged dude out there, as far as I can tell. I’m 5"5’ and, as far as I know, I don’t give off scary or threatening vibes to the same degree some other guys may be giving off. I have a soft voice. I’m very non aggressive. If I were to be sharing an elevator alone with a gal, first thing I do is establish that I wont be a treat, in some mild way.
My experience is that SOME women really don’t find that as appealing as maybe someone who gives off more “edgy” vibes. I mean, that’s cool and all, we all have our preferences, myself included. I’ve been hurt a lot and taken advantage of by women I’ve pursued a relationships with in the past, so lately I just don’t care.
That said, women for sure have it worse and have to worry about their literal lives, so… I’m not complaining at all, I think I ‘get it’. I’m just stating why I’m personally “disengaged”.