Men Choosing to Disengage from Emotional Involvement with Women (... and Bears)

In My Humble Opinion
62

Yeah, I got lit up on a Reddit thread when I dared to suggest that a way for young men to get better at dating and dealing with women was to basically deliberately go talk to women and ask them out for a cup of coffee, and not actually expect to succeed. The point would be to get to the point where striking up a conversation and asking them out for coffee (and getting rejected) would become something that they’re completely unfazed by, because they’ve done it a hundred times.

I got all sorts of really angry replies from women talking about trauma, weird men talking to them, etc. Which in my mind is their problem, not a problem of guys wanting to strike up a conversation and ask them out for coffee. They’re not doing anything wrong, but the way this was reacted to, is like they were.

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Yes, there are individuals who should not be getting involved in relationships.

But that’s not saying the problem is women. Or men. There are plenty of men and women who are doing fine in relationships.

It’s a cliche but it’s true; if every relationship you’ve ever been in has been bad, you may need to step back and look at what was the common factor in all of those relationships.

64

I guess my first question might be what is it about you or your appearance or where you live or whatever factor it is that you think is making you experience life as some sort of Frankenstein monster?

I mean I’ve known plenty of men who have chosen to disengage from emotional involvement with women because maybe they had some bad dating experiences. Not because women scatter from their mere presence like frightened villagers in a monster movie.

Not that this necessarily applies to you, but in my experience men who don’t “understand” women often lack both self-awareness as well as an ability (or interest) to recognize social cues in women.

65

that certainly makes everything harder. based on all the stuff I just read I think you are doing fine and made a good thread. yay! and look at all the people who are reporting having good relationships, despite having them with a different gender. there is reason for hope!

best post so far!

66

That’s getting into “player” territory which tends to bring on a lot of dislike, to the same degree as incel material.

There are men who report that the only safe context for them is online dating, because that ensures that the women are interested in dating and that the men are not bothering them with approaches. Now by surveys reported above, women do enjoy being in relationships as do men. Personally I would say that men are still mostly required to initiate more often than women at certain phases of the relationship. A single approach to a woman could be considered an initiation.

But as I have said, most every venue is one where a particular woman may not want to be approached. Hence the solve of online dating only. Online has its own problems with dick pics and other antisocial behaviors, which creates difficulties if this is the only acceptable dating venue. Also, at least some women do not enjoy the online experience either and those women would prefer to talk in public or be approached.

A suggestion has been that single people wear something called a “pear ring” I believe that signals they are single and available. This was viewed by some as a profit making opportunity by the company marketing the ring.

67

I agree with you about the statement from the other thread that categorized guys who decide to disengage totally from emotional involvement as being “profoundly cowardly”. I think it is a harsh and unwarranted value judgment. He’s basically saying that you have to play the role of “the nice guy” to be considered courageous, honest, and compassionate".

Actually, more often than not, “the nice guy” ends up being used and discarded. In fact, it’s called “the nice guy syndrome” and is to be avoided at all costs if one wants any chance at a romantic relationship with the woman in question. There even used to be a web site called, NiceGuys.org, that was dedicated to men who were dealing with that type of situation. So, avoiding falling into that cycle makes you wise, not cowardly.

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How about, I am told that my presence is frightening to women, that I make them uncomfortable by merely existing in the same space as them, and I don’t want to do that. I am told that I should be less threatening, but not how to go about doing that. I am told that I should learn a lesson from the fact that women find me threatening for being a man.

And I do, I take that lesson to heart, and avoid doing anything that could be construed as threatening, that could make women uncomfortable. I ignore subtle and even not so subtle clues of interest from women, out of a fear that I may be imagining them or misinterpreting them, and that acting on them could make a woman fearful or uncomfortable.

I will say that I don’t think that relationships themselves are toxic. But, I will say that discussions about relationships have certainly become so, as evidenced by the toxicity of this conversation.

It certainly seems to be the case that a man cannot express their honest opinions without being called and incel or worse, being told that it is a good thing that they are not bothering women and all the other “subtle” insults that have been thrown about here. Telling someone that women are better off because that person has withdrawn from the idea of romantic relationships is pretty disgusting and hateful. How many of you are already typing up a scathing and insulting reply to my heartfelt expression that I started this post with?

Personally, I had given up on romance many years ago. I had let many a moment pass me by, fearful that if I acted, it would be an unwelcome advance. And I’m wasn’t worried about accusations or anything, but just that I don’t want to hurt someone else, even unintentionally. I had close platonic friends, and porn exists, so that was enough, almost.

One of the fun things about living less than a mile from where I grew up is that I run into people from my past all the time. About a year back, a woman that I went on a date with 23 years ago brought her dog into my shop, we got to talking, and things have been working out quite well ever since.

However, she asked me why I didn’t kiss her at the end of our first date way back when. I said that I wasn’t sure if she wanted me to. She said that she thought she was making it obvious, and that I wasn’t interested. She felt that I blew her off. We are both very different people now than we were at the time, and things may not have worked out, we’ve both had entire lives since then, she’s had a husband and kids, but we have reminisced on what could have beens. (especially when she told me what she had planned for me that evening if I had mustered up the courage to make the first move.)

I’ve talked to her quite a bit about my past dating failures, and if I had had those sorts of conversations 20 years ago, things may have been much better for me, but even broaching those sorts of ideas gets one labeled as a creep or incel, so I’ve kept these feelings to myself. I do find it interesting that the only places online that don’t insult men for expressing their feelings are the ones that most of you would consider to be quite unhealthy.

One thing that she pointed out to me is that the socially awkward guy is often labeled as the creep and is ostracized, but it is the charismatic guy that get away with sexual assault, in her experience. She says that she is most wary of men who try to appear non-threatening.

So, in the end, my issue here is not the question posed or the answer given. Those are entirely reasonable. What I take issue with is the idea that it is supposed to teach some sort of lesson. It doesn’t. (If you disagree, tell me what the lesson is, and what I am supposed to do with it. “Be less threatening” is an asinine and useless answer, and you know it.)

And honestly, I wouldn’t feel comfortable saying this if it weren’t for the fact that I’d already disengaged from this place, and no longer have any emotional involvement in it. I was just swinging by to see if this place was as hostile and unpleasant as I remember it being, and having perused a couple of threads full of deliberate misrepresentation and passive aggressive assertions, it seems as though it certainly is. Maybe I’ll check back in again in another year or so. I really only visited out of boredom the last couple years, and I have more interesting things in my life now.

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No, not “player”. Just a sort of way to actually learn how not to be afraid of women and not to be afraid of rejection. Too many guys don’t have enough confidence to weather getting rejected, and they tie their masculinity to their success with women. So when they do muster up the courage to ask a woman out, they put way, way too much emphasis on the date, and usually put too much effort in- fancy restaurants, etc. And this is also counterproductive- it conveys expectations that the date is a “big thing”, and it makes both people uncomfortable as a result, making the woman less likely to want to go on a second date, and the man awkward and keyed up.

So if the men get to the point where they can go strike up a conversation in say… a grocery store (without any Otter-esque cucumber commentary), without fear or discomfort, and then be able to ask them out for some sort of low-stakes meeting like a cup of coffee without worrying about getting rejected, then they’re better off for dating in general- they won’t be awkward, won’t be putting on a false front, and they’ll be more confident than they would have been. The unspoken part is that if you do this enough, someone will click, and you’ll get some second and third dates.

But if you’re mired in this ‘high stakes dating’ model, you’re not going to ever really get out of it, until you somehow get lucky. And dating’s not a game of chance as much as it’s a game of numbers. Finding your life partner may largely be luck, but it’s like rolling dice- if you’re going for a specific combination, your chances of rolling that combination go up as you roll more times (up to a point).

However, I’m failing to see how that has anything to do with women in general. Some may prefer online, some may prefer in person, some may be man-haters, some may be gay, or whatever. You can’t know that until you go talk to them and find out, and just talking is innocuous and shouldn’t be considered threatening, unless it actually IS threatening in some way.

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I feel like we aren’t in the same thread. I mean, seriously, I see a lot of good/positive stuff including clarification from the OP.

ETA nice to see you back

71

For real. A response that’s basically, “Y’all are a bunch of hostile, unpleasant, passive-aggressive liars, and I only interact with you when I’m bored” is not exactly an alternative to being hostile, unpleasant, and passive-aggressive. I’m a bit surprised that @k9bfriender chose that approach.

72

I’m the one that said “cowardly,” but please reread the context, and the multiple clarifications in this thread. I did not “categorize guys who decide to disengage totally from emotional involvement” that way.

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Nobody’s going to appeal to everybody. I always was more attracted to the little quiet guys. And one of my best current and long-term friends is one of those little quiet guys, happily married for some 40 years. To somebody else: that’s how it goes.

But depending on the situation in which they were asking women out for coffee, quite possibly they were doing something wrong.

The mere fact that a woman’s out in public doesn’t mean that she’s automatically available for men to demand her attention, or to ask her out, even innocuously for coffee.

You should have tried advising them to look for situations in which conversation is normal – ideally situations focused on something they’re interested in – and to get used to talking to women in those situations first, without asking them out. Then try asking some of the women they’re already talking to about something else to go out for coffee.

And if a whole lot of people tell you you’re doing something wrong – think about why they’re saying that. If you don’t understand it, try asking them. Don’t just react along the lines of ‘no harm is meant, so there must not be any harm done’.

The “nice guy” in the sense of the term that I know is not an actual nice guy at all. He’s only presenting as nice because he wants something. He wouldn’t bother being nice to women he doesn’t find attractive, or to ones who have succeeded in convincing him they’re not interested. He may not be actively mean to them (though he might be), but his “nice” active actions are meant as currency intended to purchase something, and he’s liable to turn nasty if he doesn’t think he’s getting it.

Genuinely nice people just are nice. They’re nice to women they’re attracted to, and to women they’re not attracted to, and to little girls, and to women three times their age, and even if they’re entirely straight to little boys and grown men and old men; and to the cat and dog; and as has famously been said, in different words, to the waitress.

Will that get them dates with women who genuinely prefer men who aren’t nice? No; and why would they want them? Such women do exist; but they’re hardly the majority.

Most women are attracted to competence and to confidence, yes, But neither of those things is contradictory to being genuinely nice. Men who think the only way to express confidence is to be “edgy” don’t understand genuine confidence, and very often don’t have it.

What have I, for instance, actually said in this conversation that you think is toxic?

It’s supposed to teach a lesson that some men apparently don’t know: that women have to consider men they don’t know to be potentially dangerous. And it’s supposed, I expect, to cause conversation about why that is; and understanding of why that is. It all too often brings on a defensive reaction of along the lines of ‘I’m male and I don’t want to hurt women why am I being attacked like this?!’ But it’s not an attack. It’s pointing out a problem.

Various things have been suggested in both this thread and the other that individual men can do about it. Some men, including some in the conversation, are already doing those things, or trying to. Do you imagine that this immediately makes the problem go away? And do you think that safe driving courses mean that nobody needs to wear seatbelts – or that the fact that somebody puts their seatbelt on is an attack on all the careful drivers out there?

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Thank you for responding to my admittedly harsh (but tentative) assessment. This description does put a different light on your feelings. I only have the vaguest idea what “neurodivergent” means in your specific case, so I won’t comment further. I will only agree with @SyncoSmalls’ suggestion about therapy, if only that it might make you feel less unhappy and more able to face the world with equanimity. You could easily have another 30 or more years to live, I think it’s worth that effort, if you can find and afford a good therapist. I hope things will improve for you in any case.

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Well, I know I probably can’t change your mind with one post, but I think there’s a kind of problem with seeing people first by their gender and later by their humanity. It should be the other way around. I don’t doubt you’ve had negative relationship experiences and I think, as a person living with PTSD, we would be a better society for recognizing how trauma impacts the partner in a relationship. We currently don’t have any scripts for this. If you did everything right, you did everything right.

I’ve been with my husband for 22 years, most of my adult life. I don’t think we’ve spent a lot of time analyzing who is the man and who is the woman. I am incredibly direct in my relationships, and usually the initiator. As I said I also have PTSD and my husband is impacted by that as well. I try to create space for him to feel what he feels as much as he does me.

It sounds like you suspect you are autistic; my son is diagnosed autistic and I suspect his father is too, at least in a subclinical way. I had to handhold my husband through the whole process of getting the relationship going. I was fine with that.

Some women are really going to be fine with that. I’m totally fine with men who are socially awkward if not extra attracted to people like this. I don’t really understand why but I’ve always been like that.

Some relationships are bad. Some women’s attitudes are bad. Some men’s attitudes are bad. It’s always been like this. But there have also always been people who get along just fine, and don’t have to make every disagreement into the gender wars.

I believe in love like some people believe in religion. I think it can move mountains. So I hope someone marvellous comes your way and when she does you are ready for her. I am assuming what’s what you really want deep down based on some of your comments here.

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My confidence is directly tied to my masculinity. What is society doing to build confidence in young men?

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  • High school sports
  • Full representation in celebrity culture
  • Opportunities to intern with companies and politicians
  • A culture that glorifies masculine stereotypes at nearly every turn

What isn’t society doing to build confidence in young men?

There’s a better question, in my opinion: how is society building a positive, healthy model for masculinity for young men and boys? I think we have a lot more work to do in that regard.

78

Yeah, I think advising just to focus on asking out is going to be taken the wrong way by some men.

Also that women may not like the spectre of multiple strange men approaching them more. Hence the online pushback.

I would agree with you that it’s more than okay for a man to practice talking to women in general without making any dating overtures at all. Just go out, be seen, have a conversation with the cashier and be on your way. I’ve really never experienced any negative feedback at all when I’ve done that.

There are occasions when an in person encounter might turn into a date, but the point is to get practice with all sorts of conversations so the situation isn’t awkward and the conversations are more natural.

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I’m sorry to hear that.

The same things it does to build confidence in young women.

Encourage them to try new things, to learn from failure, to pursue their passions, etc.

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But all those things are default and expected. They don’t count.

On the other hand, a female action star or superhero is a clear and direct attack against men and masculinity, obviously.

81

From my vantage there is no shortage of opportunities men or women have available to build confidence. The problem is that building confidence requires you to feel like you are failing in order to get good at something. People don’t like being uncomfortable. So they don’t push past that “I suck at this” stage of learning.

Well, that stage is a necessary part of the process.

It’s not really on anyone else to provide that to you. It’s just something you have to do.

I went through it when I learned to write and I’m going through it now as I learn to talk to people I don’t know very well. I find it unpleasant but I’m seeing progress and it’s starting to get easier.