Motivating the Unmotivated

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

As you folks know, I hate screaming fights. I hate doing the screaming, although I do more than my share. I hate being on the receiving end of screaming. And I especially hate being in the presence of screaming that is directed toward someone else. Anybody who has hung out in the Pit with me knows about that one.

My children are more interested in doing something fun, or nothing at all, than in doing housework, getting ready for school, or anything else that smacks of work. Again, no surprises. Most people are like that.

My wife is a screamer (I don’t mean it like that, you pervs) and uses the screaming to motivate them. Except it doesn’t work. Nothing works. Corporal punishments doesn’t work, witholding privilages doesn’t work, rewards for a job well done doesn’t work. But she feels there can be only one boss in a family, so my function is more like sergeant at arms. “Spank her!” she’ll say. “You spank her. I am trying to lose my violent streak,” says I. All told, anytime we expect the kids to do anything my house turns into Hell.

She is also fond of punishments that do not get fulfilled. [sarcasm mode] That is a sure way to get results! [/sarcasm mode] Part of the problem with that is that the punishments are too big–throwing away all of their toys and stuff like that. A smaller punishment that is carried out is more motivating, but I want to get away from punishment completely. All of my training tells me that people are best motivated by positive things. Not necessarily physical rewards, like money or treats, but thanks and recognition.

With me finally fed up with all of the screaming in my life, at home and online, I am taking over as the one boss. (Actually, it was more like “If you don’t like how I do things then you can do it!” in a snotty tone. As if I have any expectation that she means it except that she can blame me if there are any problems. I would prefer to work as a team with my wife, but she is not a team player.) I’m going to have a family meeting tonight and outline my expectations for the family, get feedback as to their expectations, set goals, and determine what should be done if the goals are met or if they aren’t. Get their ideas for consistent rewards and punishments. Work with them rather than yell at them.

My hope is that by treating them as young adults they will learn to behave as young adults (my daughters are 15, 11, and 11). I know the older one is old enough and mature enough to be able to work like this, but am I expecting too much from the twins? Right now my expectation level with them is zero because they do not live up to the slightest thing.

Any tips?

2

I don’t have any kids, so take everything I post with a grain of salt. That said, I don’t know if the “positive reinforcement” method really works with kids. I know that I sure as heck wouldn’t clean my room because my Mom praised me when I was done.

I’ve always been a fan of the “no discussion” sort of parenting. At least, that’s what my parents did with me, and I pretty much did what I was told. My Mom would tell me “Go clean your room” and I’d come up with a thousand reasons why that wasn’t a good idea. She’d ignore me, and when I was done say “Go clean your room.” At that point, I was put in my room and not allowed out until it was cleaned. If I didn’t do it, I was grounded - no friends, no TV, no phone, etc. until the room was cleaned. There was never any screaming or fighting because any protests of mine were pretty much ignored. They wouldn’t even get into a discussion with me.

3

These kids are my clones. I don’t boss well and would starve rather than give my parents the satisfaction of obeying them. Wife does not “handle” me well, either. Her methods just don’t work.

She tells me that reasoning with children is stupid and fruitless. I don’t know about that because I usually get pretty good results from them when she isn’t around. But they (and I) dig in their heels the moment the yelling starts.

I’ve written an agenda for the meeting, outlining the individual problem areas of the biggest problem, getting ready on time, and opening the floor for suggestions on rewards and punishments. Maybe I’m going at this too businesslike, but that’s where my training is. I’m not suggesting that employees are just big children, although you can draw your own conclusions when I say that what works at work should work at home.

4

Welcome to my world. You could move into my house and be right at home. I will give you my support for trying to do the right thing. Good for you. Don’t give up.

Here are some things I’ve tried. First, look at the situation/chore/task. Most kids can’t handle the directive to ‘clean your room.’ Not because they can’t, but because it entails multiple tasks. I’ve found that informing my 11 year old that his room needs work and letting him sit on it doesn’t work. But if I tell him that I need all the dirty clothes from his room put in the hallway so I can get them to the laundry–that’s a smaller task. Doesn’t take as long to do, either. Of course, when the clothes are all in the hallway–I then politely ask him to take a minute and run them to the laundry room. I watch him start the task. And I check immediately when he says he’s done to make sure he did it the way I wanted it done. If you don’t give good directions about how something is supposed to be done–don’t count on kids to figure it out. Why should they? They don’t care if or how it’s done.

Breaking big things down into small tasks will work. Especially if you tell the kids how long they can expect the chore to take. Mine will do a chore that’ll take five or ten minutes much more willingly than a three hour job. I don’t blame them. Now, this is a motivator for smaller children, but if your kids are like mine, they never really learned how to break big tasks down–so don’t feel bad for making everything so elementary. “Just do it now, sweetie, while I’m fixing dinner. Then it will be done and you won’t have to mess with it after we eat.” See? You’re not rewarding them with dinner, but showing them that while you’re doing chores that serve them, they can be earning time for themselves later.

All you and your wife need to understand from each other is that if one of you makes a directive, the other must back them up. “Daddy’s right. He has to budget his time all day long and if you do it now you’ll have more time later to do your own stuff.”

Another thing that helped in my house–I purposely made myself unavailable to do fun things with the kids if I was being forced to do things they wouldn’t. “Sorry, I can’t take you to the mall. I’ve got this sweeping to do. Oh, and then I suppose I’d better do the dishes. You’ll just have to stay home, I guess.” This tactic worked with me as a kid. My mom never made me feel guilty–she tricked me into helping so I could have her time.

Good luck to you. You can do it. I hope this helps in some small way.

5

As a teacher of nearly all ages (K-11), I agree that talking down to kids is a sure way to turn them off to you. If you treat them like adults they will react more in kind (not totally like adults, but they will try to talk their way out of doing something instead of obstinantly not doing it).

In my experience, however, the perception of a threat (punishment) is usually a necessary motivator. OTOH, mileage may vary for you, as you have more forms of rewards than “just” praise and rewards. Personally, I think it should be ingrained into your kids that they should do something because they are supposed to do it rather than something they want to do for a reward. And looking down at struuter’s post (which just kinda appeared), I’m going to shut up, because her advice looks better than mine…

6

Yes, breaking down tasks works for me, too. It seems so overwhelming otherwise. “You–pick up the dirty clothes. You–pick up the books.” Time limits are helpful, too, but since kids don’t really understand the passage of time I keep my clock flexible. If they are working hard then time moves slowly, but jumps ahead if they slow down. And they are always afraid of whatever punishment they imagine will take place if they don’t finish on time, even though I’m happy to tell them that it’s just that I’ll be terrible disappointed with them.

Part of the problem is that the situation is so out of control by the time I get home that it’s hard to turn around. I have to work on that.

7

Agree fully. “Because it is what a good person does” is what STILL motivates me.

8

Zone Family Meeting
10/30/00

AGENDA

Problem: Getting ready on time

A. Clothes staged and ready to wear

  1. Appropriate clothes
    What sort of weather do we expect?
    Are the clothes clean?
    Are the clothes in good repair?
    Do the clothes fit?
  2. Were they put out the night before (staged)?
  3. Where is your jacket?

B. Cleanliness

  1. Is your face washed?
  2. Are your teeth brushed?
  3. Is your hair combed?

C. Bookbags

  1. Is everything in your bookbag?
  2. Are all forms signed?
  3. Is your lunch in your bookbag?
  4. Is your bookbag where it belongs?

What rewards are there for being ready on time?

  1. Calm, happy atmosphere for you
  2. Happy teachers
  3. What else?

What punishments should there be if you are NOT ready on time?

  1. Any ideas?
9

Dropzone, do you and Mrs. Zone ever argue about your relative places in the family hierarchy in front of the kids? Do you ever undercut each other’s statements by not backing each other up?

If you do, this could be a bad mistake. You present a divided front, thus making your kids lose respect for both of you individually, and for your positions as the the heads of the household.

I don’t have kids, so I may be completely full of dooka-dooka here, but I once asked my parents (superb motivators) how they managed to steer two teenage boys and another younger boy in the right direction simultaneously without having it come apart on them. They told me that when they were about to have my oldest brother, they made a pact that they would not fight in front of the children. If they had a disagreement in front of the kids, the one parent would back up what the first one had said for the sake of unity. Then, later on, they’d fight it out away from the kids. Of course, as far as I know, neither of them ever had to completely go against their own nature in one of these situations (as they are both very reasonable people,) but this one tactic presented two hormone-riddled adolescents and one black sheep (me) with a unified front. It was impossible to separate them and push one or the other around.

Keep in mind that this only held in matters of important decisions. If it was a spirited intellectual debate, they’d argue with each other (and us) till we were all blue in the face.

10

I admit to having recently created a divided front because of my disagreements with Mrs Zone’s methods. It seems more like good cop/bad cop than management. Part of the problem with not arguing in front of the kids is that the only time we aren’t in front of them is when we are at work and I’d rather not argue when I’m at work, although that is what triggered this whole thing today.

11

My parents had the same problem, so they’d argue about the problems in their bedroom, door locked. The one sacrosanct rule, no matter what, though, was that the kids would be presented with a united parental front. It’s kind of odd to picture it in terms of tactics, but that seems to be exactly what it is.

12

The standard advice is this - hope it helps :slight_smile:

***The only way to motivate someone is to find out what motivates them, and then do that. ***

13

So how much of the agenda did you treat us to there, drop? I’ve never had a successful “family meeting” wth an “agenda” as you are suggesting. Mind if I stop by and watch?

I think the comment about breaking things down and giving specific instructions is critical. My kids are a little younger than yours, 13, 11, 10, but I imagine we have many of the same concerns. One thing it was important for me to understand (fortunately some time ago) is that it is not enough to tell the kids to do something, such as put your dirty clothes in the hamper, and just assume it will get done. You have to say, put the clothes in the hamper right now, then watch the kid go to her room, then you have to check to see it is done the way you want, then if it isn’t you have to go get the kid and walk them through the way it should be done. Then you have to repeat the entire process, oh, a million or 2 times before the kid occasionally accidentally puts her clothes in the hamper without prompting.

I think screaming is rarely needed, but I also believe you can phrase things in a manner that makes the kid realize it isn’t a choice. Instead of calling out, “Are you ready to go?” a couple of minutes before you go it has to be, “are you clean and dressed appropriately?” Then a couple of minutes before you have to go you say, “Come to the door anbd put your clothes and jacket on, go the the bathroom, and get in the car.” And then when you are in the car, explain why the whole process is important to show consideration and cooperation towards your family and others. Again, repeat a jillion times.

Another little point, I used to get really frustrated at things I’d hear in another part of the house, and I’d yell out, “Stop that!” or “What’s going on?” I realized I had to get my lazy butt over to wherever the action was, and see for myself what was happening, and make my initial comments in a sane voice.

Final observation, you realize, of course, that tonight’s meeting won’t solve anything. The most you can hope for is to initiate a process. You will have to follow up. Print out the concerns, post them in kids’ rooms, on the fridge, etc., do a system of tables keeping track with stars, with an ultimate award (yes, works better for younger kids) have a follow up discussion, look for books/resources at the library, etc.

Man, if its not one thing, its another. Good luck.

BTW, did you get the family meeting idea from The Partridge Family or the Brady Bunch?

14

I’ve got two kids who are somewhat younger than yours (11 and 7) and I’ve got to agree with those who are saying you need to get together with Mrs. Zone and settle your disagreements before you can form an effective strategy for dealing with discipline. It sounds like you need to work out some basic agreement about how to handle discipline before you can proceed, and it won’t be easy if your styles are as different as they sound. It sounds as if there’s a lot of frustration on both your parts, but neither of you is able to deal with the issue alone. You’ve got to be on the same side if you’re going to be effective. After all, you DO want the same result, it’s just a matter of finding out how to get to that.

Asking them for their input is fine, but if you give kids the idea that they’re equal partners with you in running the household, you’re going to end up with very little control over your home. I’m all for talking to kids and even reasoning with them. BARGAINING with them, on the other hand, is usually a bad idea. They have to know that you expect them to do certain things, no matter what, and that there is simply no way for them to get out of doing those things. When it comes to school issues like being on time and having homework done, you might try to enlist their teachers in the effort. They will probably have some ideas for effective strategies and they can help keep expectations consistent. The difference between children and employees, besides their ages, is that you can’t fire your children if they just plain refuse to perform as you want them to.

John Rosemond (although I’m not a fan of ALL his pronouncements) has some good ideas about this. This parenting stuff is hard work, and it’s really difficult when you’re in the middle of it to see how you can break bad habits in yourselves and your children. Reading what others think about the situation can help.

15

Never watched 'em. This is really a team meeting with the word “team” scratched out and replaced with “family.” That’s where my training is and how I want to try treating it. Works with grups, should work with reasonably smart kids.

Yes, I know this will not solve all our problems in one fell swoop. Yes, I know the value of follow-through. Yes, that’s the whole agenda. And yes, I appreciate all this input. That’s why I asked for it. You wonderful people help me work through and organize my own thoughts.

16

Since you asked for advice, there is one thing that struck me about your post. The fact that you scheduled a family meeting, wrote and edited an agenda, and put items like

It occurs to me that you may be a ‘Type A personality’ to use the PC term.
I would just make sure you focus on the reasons for doing things, rather than getting caught up on how exactly it was done, as many type A people I know do.
for example, laundry must be picked up, or else it will get walked on and destroyed, and you will be wearing torn clothes to school. Laundry must be put in the hamper, or it wont get washed, and you will be wearing smelly clothes to school(I’d imagine that 11, and 15 year old girls will take that to heart). Dirty dishes must get cleaned up, and garbage must be taken out, or else the whole house will smell, and magots will be crawling on things. If you can’t think of a good reason for something to be done, then it may not be a battle that is nessasary to fight.

17

I have no kids, and probably have no business posting here, but your OP reminded me of a similar meeting that happened in my family.

The Reader’s Digest Condensed Version: For a laundry list of reasons, my sister and I were forced to go live with my dad and step-monster at the ages of 11 and 14. My mother’s parenting philosophy, let’s just say… was less than strict. There were no “chores” expectations.

However, Dad and StepMonster had more like “slave labor” in mind when they agreed to take us on. The first full day we lived there, he presented us with a list of duties and no-no’s and outlined what the punishments were when we violated them. Sounds like a great idea, right? Kinda like what you’re about to do, right? Here’s how we viewed that approach:

  1. Dad has no experience with teenagers or pre-teens. What the hell did he know about what we would or would not be willing to do? Rather than present us with a list, he could have let us interact and “chosen” which chores we would like to be our responsibility… and not ASSUMED that we would immediately shirk our duties. Which we would have, having been teenagers… or almost a teenager in my case.
  2. I don’t think your twins will have any trouble contributing to the discussion, understanding expectations, etc. 11-year-olds are a lot smarter than people give them credit for. In fact, I think all kids are a lot smarter…
  3. Dad and StepMonster were not UNIFIED in their decisions to or not to punish. They were also inconsistent with their own decisions. Not only did they not back each other up, but often would forget when they themselves had grounded one of us. Needless to say my sister and I still do not respect either one of them.
  4. Dad’s list of punishments was “cruel and unusual” in my opinion. I think he was trying to make up for Mom’s slack parenting by devising the most extreme punishments imaginable, short of abuse or neglect. Make sure the punishments fit the crime, is all I’m saying.

I think the most important thing will be to get the Mrs. to buy in, or your team will be divided and you will fail. If the team doesn’t support your decision, you might as well be acting in a vacuum, because that’s how effective your approach is going to be. I’m all for negotiating the terms with the family… As a manager of a team, that’s how I approached my response to you, rather than as a parent, which I’m not. Hope this helps. Good luck and let us know how the meeting turns out. (Crap, I just re-read and realized your meeting is tonight. You probably won’t see this until after… Oh well.)

18

If I or my clones/children were Type-As, we wouldn’t need this meeting. :wink: No, they are lazy and don’t care if they go to school in dirty clothes. I’m just trying to develop a more balanced approach to life in them. And no, I don’t want to present them with a list of rules and then enforce them haphazardly. What is on the list is the minimum necessary for them to get out of the house in the morning without pissing off my wife. As the saying goes, “If mama ain’t happy, ain’t NOBODY happy.” And a consistent follow-through is vital.

19

The kids and wife were gathered around the kitchen table making Halloween cookies, so I just started talking rather than running a meeting. We discussed who gets hurt when they are late for school (from them through their classmates), why they would want to be ready early and all that rot.

When it was time to get everything staged they dawdled and lazed and the yelling started and maybe there was some less of it this time. Then we went over the list again. It’s a slow job, turning the Titanic, but it can be done. Maybe they’ll get sick of the list.