Help! Please?
Tonight there’s going to be a showdown at the Miss home. LilMiss is 9 going on 16 and it just ain’t working. Yesterday she came home from a baseball game and within 5 minutes we were arguing. I had cleaned the living room, and BAM it’s a mess. I tell her to clean up and receive a healthy roll of the eyeballs, which sets me off.
A conversation later in the day:
MT: Since you’ve outgrown the majority of your clothes in the last month, here’s a box for you to put everything that’s too small to wear in. Grab everything that’s…
LM: I KNOW Mom, I understand what you’re telling me! But I don’t want to do it NOW, I’m BUSY! (She was looking through her elementary school yearbook, listening to the radio)
MT: EXCUSE ME, if I may finish? I WAS going to say you may do it in the morning
LM: ~long deep sigh~ FINE.
I did laundry yesterday. Nicely folded her clothes (including the new stuff I bought this weekend to replace that which she has outgrown, none of which I received a thank you for!), placed them in a laundry basket for her to put away after she cleaned out her dresser. This morning they were in a mess on the floor.
It’s been building over the past month. The no-school blues? Pre-puberty? I don’t know. Last night I snapped. I yelled at her for behaving so rudely (and here I was, being rude by yelling!), and went into my room to cool down. Later on, when I came down, I saw a note. She wrote “Dear Mom, I am sorry for everything I done wrong my whole life. I love you”. I cried. So I told her that tonight we are going to sit down and hammer out some rules to live by.
Here’s where I need your parental input. I never behaved like she does (I confirmed that with my mom and my sister. My mom even said LilMiss is too far gone to be reigned in, but it’s not like she’s a delinquent or anything. She’s just obnoxious). So how do I go about this? I don’t believe in sending her to her room… that’s like sending her to ToysRUs. Grounding? Not that big a deal, as she doesn’t know many kids around here to play with anyways, so she tends to stay inside.
Help? Does loading chores work? What would be good ‘punishment’ for the whole disrespecting thing? Should the rules be posted on the fridge? I have NO clue!
(To add backround: It’s just her and I. She sees her dad at least 1x/week and we all have a good relationship. However, I cannot call him into this as she does not act like this at his house. It’s pretty much been just the two of us since she was two years old, and so there’s that whole friend/parent problem also)
Make up a couple lists. The first list is all the chores you’d like her to do on a regular basis: put away her laundry, clean her room, whatever. Put absolutely every chore you’d expect to ask of her over the course of a week onto the list (this is mostly to make sure you really aren’t being a slavedriving tyrant…).
Second list is all the privileges she gets. TV, video games, movies, dessert, cookies, friends over, going over to friends’ houses, sleepovers, whatever. Likewise list absolutely every cool thing she gets.
Check to make sure that the two lists are reasonably balanced. If she’s getting way more goodies than she’s getting chores, point this out to her. If she’s working way too much for the reward, point this out to yourself. If they’re balanced, yay! Both of you need to make sure things stay that way.
Make up the same pair of lists for yourself. If she complains about her chore list, offer to swap lists for a week. My son complained once about having to clean his room, and I said, “Hey, I’ll clean your room if you take one item from my list.” Smart kid that he is, he cleaned his room; otherwise, he’d have had to clean both bathrooms…
I like ethilrist’s suggestion. We have done lists of what is expected of the kids. I’ll see if I can drag one up. But basically, they need to get good grades, keep their rooms clean, help out with whatever chores we ask/tell them to do, and be pleasant to the rest of the family.
The only thing I would add is you might want to try being a total hard ass in terms of not letting ANYTHING go for a while. Every rolling of the eyes or sarcastic tone gets noticed, and tell her that that simply is not accepted. Even if she feels it, she can’t express it to your face.
I often required that my kids write short essays, explaining why certain behavior was okay, or how they would feel if someone acted that way to them, etc. Yes, sometimes you then have to deal with a snotty, self pitying essay. But I feel it makes the kid realize their actions and attitudes have implications.
And EVERY chore has to be done promptly and correctly. Which often takes more effort on your part than simply doing it yourself. But you have to get your body into the room, tell her why what she did is not acceptable, tell/show her how it needs to be done, and if necessary, stay there until she does it right.
We make no bones of the fact that mom and dad get to make the rules in the house, and they have to follow those rules until they are old enough to move ot and make their own rules.
Good luck.
Oh yeah - I have repeatedly been called a parent from hell, etc. on these boards. So this certainly is only my opinion/experience.
Your daughter sounds like a slightly older version of my kid. I call her a “teenager in training”. For example, mine wouldn’t clean her room for a long period of time. Loss of privelege, time outs, and eventually the temporary removal and storage (in the basement) of all her toys didn’t even bother her.
What does work (most of the time!) is doing it together. Plus, if I leave her alone too long at something, her mind wanders and she ends up reading or colouring. I try to look busier than I am and she ends up doing far more than I do, plus, I give her some direction so it doesn’t seem like such a big task. (“Let’s get all your dirty clothes in the hamper. Now let’s pile up all your books.”) Also, positive reinforcement. I build her up and she positively beams. Another thing (sorry for being long-winded) is I try to break up longer tasks into shorter chunks of time so it seems more manageable.
A friend of mine has a list and a clock on the wall beside the door. When the daughter comes home from school, she must complete the list of chores (like hanging up her coat, clearing out her backpack, doing her homework) within a certain amount of time, and she can pick which chore she does first. (That’s where the clock comes in–my friend removed the plastic cover and shaded it in so there was no mistaking the time frame.) If I remember correctly, if the simple list was completed in the proper amount of time, her daughter “earned” free time to do something she enjoyed. It worked well for them.
If your kid is like mine, a rigid list of chores won’t work, but a “soft” list should, particularly if coupled with loss of privilege. (“If you want to go to Julie’s house tomorrow after school, I need you to hang up your clean clothes and put away the clean dishes before then.”)
One thing I noticed with my daughter is that riding her about something just makes her shut me out entirely.
First off, my child is only five months, so take whatever I say with a grain of salt…
However…
I was watching a talk show (okay it was Oprah, back off) and they talked about an excellent book called The Essential 55
Now granted, the book is aimed at teachers, but the “rules” would seem to work for parents too. I think it sounds like an excellent guide myself, coming from someone who isn;t too far removed from the :rolleyes: Mother stage.
Also, about the note, don’t be sucked in too far, I used to do stuff like that after screwing up because I felt badly, then the next hour, right back where it started.
Yes, at nine, she is probably hitting t-minus puberty and counting…complete with mood swings, sarcasm, eyes rolling back so far she can view her scalp from the inside and just a general air of snottiness.
This is partially hormonal and partially age-related. She’s not a “little kid” but not quite a “big kid” or teen and it’s just one of those awkward places for a kid to be developmentally and emotionally. They’ve learned sarcasm, which they view as a more grown up way of communicating, but not quite how to use it appropriately, i.e. when to NOT use it. In order to feel older, smarter, etc, they need to make you dumber. They aren’t babies afterall who need their mommies…(Eyes rolling back now). BUT they still do need their moms to put the brakes on them and provide the boundaries in which they can safely and appropriately operate. She’s testing you to find out what’s ok and not ok to do. You’re the safest person to learn from.
Be very specific with what you expect of her. Explain to her what behaviors you consider rude and why it hurts you when she acts like that. Give her specific examples and have her come up with a different response that would have been better. I’ve always found that having a quiet chat at bedtime, snuggled up with the lights out and explaining things in a more adult way than maybe you’re used to helped. It doesn’t make it all better, but they have it in the back of their mind and so at least they aren’t as surprised at the consequences for their actions. (Although feigning shock at any sort of punitive action is , I believe, a requirement of this age group.)
Two things that have already been pointed out: positive attention for appropriate behavior and be very specific and genuine.
Bad: “Oohhh look, little snookums, what a very, very good job. What a big, good girl you are.” (Not to say you talk to her like that!)
Better: "I really like the way you took care of that mess. You picked everything up and put it away where it belonged. Thanks, that’s a big help to me. " If it’s appropriate to the situation you can even throw in a “well, now that you’ve helped and I have one less thing to do, we have time to…” play a game, rent a movie, have a Coke and a smile, whatever.
And you need to set the parameters about when/how it’s done.
You need to figure out how she works best. By the clock? By the hour? Relative to an activity? You can even make it a challenge. “I bet you can’t get this done in half an hour. How long do you think it will take? I’ll set the timer and let’s see.” (Then of course they have to prove you wrong!)
One other thing I’ve tried that’s helped is giving them options as to which chores they’re responsible for. They still have some that aren’t negotiable, but they have some choices. My fifteen year old will pick up an entire room in ten minutes but would rather die than vacuum. (Her older sister once took nearly an hour to vacuum the kitchen as she did it without the floor attachment, just the end of the tube. It was painful to watch and she knew it. But I just let her do it and didn’t rise to her bait.) The nearly ten year old is exactly the opposite. She will clean the entire refrigerator out and wash all the windows before picking up a scrap of paper off the floor. When doling out the extra chores I go with their natural inclinations.
And consequences need to be fair, quickly given, meaningful to them and consistently carried out. Each child is different so you have to figure out what’s torturous for her! What does she like to do? How does she like to spend her time? What does she not like to do? No tv for two hours. Write down three responses that would have been better - make it at least 200 words. No video tonight. No computer. Fold the next load of laundry and put it away. Eventually they get it. It just seems like forever.
And just think, when she’s done with this phase, she’ll get her period…
This book is really good, full of common sense advice. I used the ideas here with my boys when they entered the “eyeroll from hell” era. I highly recommend the book.
You know, I get all fiesty, planning on CHANGING my house, and LilMiss is ill. Stressed and depressed more than anything. She was asleep in bed by 6pm. Poor kid.
I looked through the link Myron posted and through some other parental type sites.
What I decided was: She will now get allowance. BUT, she has a list of chores she must accomplish in order to earn it. We talked about the list of chores this morning (not terribly extensive, basically what I would argue with her to do before and a couple other ones-wash dishes, put groceries away). If I have to tell her to do something twice, she loses money. If chores are not done, she loses money. She cannot run around every Sunday night trying to get everything done. She can earn allowance back by doing chores off my list. Ethilrist- I did write down the division of work as it is now and the privileges she has. Having it laid out on paper made a HUGE impression on her. She asked why having a TV and radio in her room was a privilege. :rolleyes: Uh, because many kids don’t have them?
We also discussed what mom will NOT be buying for her anymore. No more TCBY on a whim. No more toys just because she whines. No more McD’s because she’s hungry NOW (She has a hard time understanding that one cannot starve to death because dinner is in 30 minutes!).
RE: Behaviour. Thank you poysyn for linking that book. I was looking for it, but could not remember the name! We went over the list I made up (pretty short): Please/Thank you MUST be said. NO means NO, do NOT ask again (and I was told that I need to learn to say NO, not “Maybe later”, or “I really do not think we should”). If you have a problem with me, do not stomp off in a snit. Write it out, we’ll discuss it. Verbal barf will not be tolerated. Bedtime is set and specific now, wil time allowed for reading, relaxing (this was also an issue… like me, she is a night owl. BUT while I have learned how to get through a day on 3 hours of sleep, she cannot and she does not grasp that). Punishment for breaking rules are loss of privileges–TV, radio, etc.
She seem good with it- we talked about it for a while this morning, with her drawing up scenarios and me telling her what the consequences would be, LOL.
I find The Look to be very effective with my 11 year old daughter.
She’ll ask me for something.
I’ll say no.
She’ll start to whine.
I put down my book, knitting, food, whatever, and give her a full-fledged stare. No smile, just a good hard stare. Don’t say anything, even when she continues to whine.
Very quickly she’ll learn she’s headed toward thin ice and best back up quick.
I’m getting the heavy sighs and the snotty "Fine!"s too. As I told her, the nastier she gets with me, the more she’s going to piss me off and lose privileges.
The money is good, too. My daughter has an allowance, and I even make her pay her library fines with it if she’s late returning a book. It teaches them responsibility.
I use “The Look” (registered trademark of the EvilMissTake) in the most direst of situations, as it makes her cry. I have not honed the “Gentler, Kinder Evil Look” well. But “The Look” is good enough to make her dad confess all of his past sins without even asking. It’s too much for her.
And yeah, she will be forced to pay for overdues, if the overdues are her fault. She reminded me this morning that she left a book at grandma and grandpas LAST WEEK. Uh, no, we’re not running over there at 7am to get it, you’ll have to either ask them if they’ll take you to the library or come up with the $$ from your allowance. But, if they are over due because I’m just too tired, that’s my problem.
You know, some of you may say I’m a terrible parent for saying this, but I found the most effective punishment with BOTH of my kids was taking away the thing they loved most dearly in the world – reading.
We’re all totally book-aholics in this family. And I realized that a 12-hour reading ban would have a stronger punishing effect on them than almost anything else I could devise. I learned very quickly not to tell their teachers, though; they were HORRIFIED. I guess they didn’t realize that a 12-hour reading ban with my kids just means they’ll read one less book today, not that they’ll be set back five years in their reading progress.
Sometimes finding something like that that your child LOVES and really, REALLY would hate to do without, even for a few hours, can make all the difference. You would only have to take it away once or twice. I can’t remember having to enforce that threat very often, because after one experience, it was the best behavior changer I could come up with. It might not be reading with your daughter, but something else that she thinks she will DIE if she has to go without for 12 hours will make a huge difference.
And lastly, a mantra for you, to be repeated to yourself whenever and as many times as necessary: “Why am I arguing with hormones?” (This one will save your sanity for the next ten years. Trust me.)
I heard another one on Dr. Laura the other day…and before you slam the advice-giver, listen to the advice.
A woman called up with a similar problem with her daughter…attitude and all that. She and her husband were disagreeing if the child should be allowed to attend a friend’s birthday party. It was one of those parties held at an outside venue, where they have to pay in advance for the number of attendees.
Dr. Laura said not to punish the friend and the family, but to use the time while the daughter was at the party to empty out her room. No tv, radio, phone, books, toys, etc. Just a bed and a dresser.
Then, tell the child that when she learns to behave, she will get some of her stuff back. The more she behaves, the more stuff she gets back.
Different things work for different kids and parents. You’ve already received some good advice, but I would like to add that the “discipline” that seems most effective at our house, is the consequence that is related to the misbehavior.
You mentioned that you did laundry and found the new and clean clothing strewn about the room. At our house said child would have been restricted from all other activities until the clothing was properly put away. Furthermore, if that means it required that some or all of the clothes be re-laundered. Then that was his responsibility. Yes even a nine year old can handle laundry. You may have to watch or supervise, but they can do it.
As for being interuppted with words or eyerolls when you are asking or telling her what you expect of her, I believe this is a terrible lack of respect. I simply don’t tolerate it. The moment it happens consequences occur and if it continues they escalate. If my child (whether 6 or 16) had interrupted me with an eyeroll and “I’m busy”, when I was asking them to do something with the intent of letting them do it later. I would stop then and in that moment required that whatever they thought they were “busy” with was stopped until I had their full respectful attention. The task would be moved from doing by tomorrow morning to do it immediately and you may do nothing else until it is done. This of course requires my (or your) personal discipline and consistency so that they know that will happen every time they pull it. Once they realize that it being rude is more of an imposition on them than it is on you, then they will stop.
Ivylass, I have yet to disagree with a single blasted one of your posts. “The Mom Look” as it is known in my house, is the best at handling attitude problems.
Something I learned from my spouse and have since used: “No, I’m not mad at you for what you said. But your tone and attitude were very disrespectful, and that is why you are in trouble/grounded/can’t play any longer.” I couldn’t believe the change in the attitude department after we started using that.
It’s a contradiction in terms sometimes, trying to raise someone to be independent and self- sufficient, but to still listen to their parents.
This site offers a clever solution that you can buy but if you read it through you can easily set it up for yourself. My kid is only 10 months but I have this thing bookmarked for future reference…
I just wanted to add my support to you in your endeavors with your daughter. I’m so glad you are acting upon this now, unlike a very good friend of mine who never took the advice or followed through.
Her son started with the same issues at 11(boys are slower to develop, right?) and she has 65,000 in credit card debt from buying him things he never earned because she felt guilty for being a single parent. The kid is now 16 1/2, does not shower for a week, doesnt take out the trash and demands 20 bucks every other day. He has no intentions of getting a summer job and thinks he will live with his mom forever. He probably will.
I wish you the strength to see it through. Don’t let what happened to my friend happen to you.
So far she has lost $1.50: $1.00 for not cleaning the living room after I reminded her and .50c for fibbing about straightening her room.
She asked this morning whether she can have some of her allowance for our vacation (leaving RIGHT after work… HUZZAH!). As long as she gets everything done. And she’s being picked up in an hour. Kid is a whirling dervish up in her room.
Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it very much!
I try to look busier than I am and she ends up doing far more than I do, plus, I give her some direction so it doesn’t seem like such a big task. (“Let’s get all your dirty clothes in the hamper. Now let’s pile up all your books.”) Also, positive reinforcement. I build her up and she positively beams. Another thing (sorry for being long-winded) is I try to break up longer tasks into shorter chunks of time so it seems more manageable.