A friendship that doesn’t permit honesty is crap. As for me, I tend to keep my romance/sex and platonic thingies in separate buckets. When a friend brings up carnal issues, there are two honest approaches: blunt assessment, honest dodge. In BA, you assess friend in terms of how you’d assess his/her physical attractiveness. In HD, you indicate that when you maintain an active, platonic friendship, yuu try to keep those things out of it … asking that of a friend is a bit like a sibling asking you if they’re “hot.”
Be sure that you understand the prevailing friendship protocols. There are palliative friendships, where you are that person’s psychic teddy bear, and nothing bad comes out of you. Ever. There are “hard” friendships, where your job as a friend is to regularly beat them over the head with practical advice and harsh reality. Think of it as division of labor. Know your job, and that tells you whether to tell her the hard truths, or whether to fluff up her ego with the usual mythology.
It wouldn’t be the first time I hear a guy being asked “how can you date that ugly mop” and answering “I don’t look at her face, dude… haven’t you noticed her boobs?”
If I asked a friend “do I have a big butt” and he said I don’t, well then, I do have working eyes and an IQ over 85, so I would have known they were lying. Mind you, it still is the kind of question someone with working eyes and an IQ over 85 should just know better than to ask…
I agree that it was a shitty question to ask. She knows the answer. I would lie.
If she’s a close enough friend (which it sounds like she is), you could turn the tables on her. Ask her what SHE thinks of her appearance. Ask her what her worst feature is in HER eyes. If she says, “I wish I had better skin” you could say something like, “have you tried Proactiv” or “I heard that sunscreen is important in skin care” or something like that. If she hates her hair, tell her you think she’d look adorable in “this” style. If she’s overweight, you could offer to join a gym with her or go on thrice weekly power walks or something.
There’s no useful result from dropping a bomb on her, particularly when it’s pretty clear she knows it.
I know it’s too late now but you should have paused then pointed to something behind her and yelled, “Look at that big thing over there!” Then when she was distracted, run out of the room. Or maybe a ninja smoke bomb. Give me a second, let me work this through.
Crafter Man has it in one. There’s few other acceptable answers for a question asked like that, but she was REALLY putting you on the spot with a stupid question like that.
The only other possible answer might have been to do a verbal makeover and say “you have excellent eyes/bone structure/hair/elbows whatever, but you need to lose weight and start exercising and blah blah blah”
I know one lady my age, who is not very attractive face-wise, but has toned her body to a “T” and dresses with exquisite style, and she makes an entrance. She’s not conventionally “pretty” or voluptuous, but she’s “hot” to many men.
I think the fact that she asked you as a very good friend means she wanted an honest answer. Also very few people are irredemably ugly, so she may have been fisshing for ideas on improving her look. You being a man of the world and not interested in being intimate with her (I’m guessing) would be a perfect person to ask. She didn’t like the answer but I expect she respects you for giving it. For the sake of politeness it is probably worth appologising for having hurt her feelings next time you meet. Meanwhile think of how she might improve her appearence, as she may be asking you for ideas soon. Posture can be as important as anything else and can be learnt by anyone. Don’t suggest weight loss if she has tried befor and failed. Tell her which way of doing her hair you find most suitable for her figure/face. Consider if she does too much or too little makeup…
I would keep my guard up with a question like this. This sounds like something that women ask their guy friends before deciding whether or not they should make a pass at them.
Lying and telling her that you find her attractive could leave you backpeddling if things don’t work out with her husband. There is no conversation as awkward as, “I think you’re a great person, I think you’re beautiful and no, I don’t want you.”
I agree with those who have suggested letting her know that you see her platonically and that it’s difficult to make that kind of call, much like checking out your own sister.
Um…you know, maybe I’m a bit cynical but this is what I thought, too. There is no way I would ask a male friend if they thought I was ugly. I might ask “Do I like nice in this dress?” Or “Did you notice my hair, I did it differently” or if I was really dressed up, “How do I look?” If I am asking “Do you think I am ugly” Or “Do you think I am beautiful” other than as a joke I am asking “Are you attracted to me, are you interested in dating me or going further”?
Why would you put your friend on the spot like that?
As for me, I would have lied like a champ. “No way, you look fine.” If she insisted, I would have pointed to some features that are attractive “You have beautiful eyes, don’t you know?” to convey two things, namely - she has beautiful eyes, and it might not be that easy to notice them right away, even by herself, which is why she hasn’t notived them.
Skald the Rhymer, there is only one acceptable answer to that question, when asked by a friend. The answer is always “YES, you are beautiful (or handsome or whatnot)!” Good one, Crafter_Man.
This is because the person is a friend. You say she is a kind, lovely nice person. Thus she is beautiful, and attractive, and radiant regardless of what her body looks like or what notions other people have about what “beauty” is! So go with what WhyNot said and pick out what Helen’s best features are, and send the pretty lady some roses and a card. Tell her you were stupid and that her nose is noble or that you like her hair and that most importantly you think she is a kind wonderful person!
Yes, I really do believe this stuff. (What can I say, I’m a fat earth-mother type chick. I have a gorgeous, hot, fit, mate who still tells me I am sexy and gorgeous.)
I have an odd standard of beauty, maybe because I spend at lot of time at pagan camp. I find that almost all people, of any shape or size, can be quite beautiful. The few people I perceive as being ugly are people who are ignorant, or mean, or are judgemental and nasty. I also find people who are “fake”, and extremely vain (sterotypical supermodel types) to be less attractive than people who have a more natural style. In other words those people who would comment on Helen’s size are far, far less beautiful than she is.
It’s a shame that Helen’s hubby doesn’t do a better job of making her feel special. He’s missing out.
What exactly is so repulsive about her? Is it just the fat, or is she truly hideous, with bad skin and nasty hair?
Doesn’t she have any nice attributes?
Doesn’t she at least have pretty eyes?
If I were you, I would call her up and say, “You caught me off-guard the other day with that question. I mean, what kind of question is that? You’re not hideous. You should know that. You managed to catch a husband, didn’t you? And a lot of women would kill for your (pick her best attribute). I’m sorry if my awkwardness hurt your feelings.”
She knows she’s not beautiful. There is a lot of ground between “ugly” and “beautiful.” She just wants to hear that she’s not at the bottom of the totem pole, looks-wise.
I would strongly encourage her to work on her marriage with her husband. I think that’s probably the most likely place for her to find success with men.
Something I realized a while back that I have used to bolster the self-esteem of a friend of mine who couldn’t find a boyfriend because she thought she wasn’t attractive: You don’t coach your wife through two pregnancies without figuring out that there are more things in life that are attractive than small, thin, firm and perky.
The thing I sense is that she was really asking “If I break up with my husband, will I be alone forever?”. When you said that she had a husband who loves here, exactly how truthful was that? Helen didn’t seem to quite agree and she’s in the position to know.
Your tapdancing seems to have gotten the truth across, seeing as how you say she was pained by the conversation. A good personality and losing weight can go a long way to getting a new guy. If it is really bothering her there’s always cosmetic surgery.
I disagree. But even if this were true, you should still lie. I mean, what purpose would it serve to tell her she’s ugly?
The only exception would be if her unattractiveness was solely due factors that are within her control. As an example, let’s say her unattractiveness was solely due to the fact that she’s fat. In this case, it *might * be O.K. to tell her, “You’re an attractive woman. But have you thought about losing some weight?” Even then, this is *really * risky territory. The safest and probably best response is to simply lie and say, “You look great.”
But my argument was that it is realy quite rare for someones unattractiveness to be completely outside the persons control. Makeup, skin treatment, exercise, diet, careful clothes choices are all possible. Not everyone can be model material, but nearly everyone can clean up their act sufficiently to gain the attention of others.
It is of course possible that he guy she is interested in is so shallow that he would only consider a beauty model, but such people are worth avoiding even if you meet their criteria. If the guy is normal and not involved with someone else, his interests can be piqued by almost anyone.
I’m not suggesting saying “Yes you are ugly, God musy have broken the ugly stick when he made you” but also not suggesting “No, you are beautiful” because saying the latter will mean the person does not seek to improve their appearence and would lead to false hopes. A suggestion for possible improvement, or simply like “You look fine when not wearing those leggings” is more truthful and useful.
I was getting a vibe about some kind of game she was playing, but I wasn’t sure what it was - I think this is it. There is just something…coy about this whole scenario.
I don’t think that’s quite fair. It’s not necessarily shallow to not be romantically attracted to someone who you don’t find physically attractive. With time, really getting to know and like someone can “cloud the mind’s eye” over it, but it’s not always going to happen. Also, there is a lot of middle ground between not caring about looks at all and only dating “beauty models”*.
Your last point about “not being attached” got me to re-read the OP to see where she knew this Paris guy from and it seems it’s from her “support group”. Would that be a troubled marriage type support group? Probably bad news, romance-wise, regardless of the nature of the support group.
*reminds me of a pathology class I once took. We imagined a conversation at a party:
Girl A: So, do have a guy in your life?
Girl B: ~bragging~ Oh, yes. My boyfriend is a model, don’t you know.
Girl A: Really? Where would I have seen him? What does he model?
Girl B: Ummm, pathology textbooks. He models jaundice.
