My father's behaving reasonably...I don't know how to handle it

[Podkayne]

Keep in mind also that at the time of the phone call they thought they were going to a vegetarian restaurant. My dad’s reaction was “you can find something to eat anyplace you go,” the implication being that he would be unable to find something without meat that he could tolerate.

That is so bizarre and backwards! A meat-eater could eat anything at a vegetarian restaurant, but the converse is so not true, it isn’t even funny.

I’m not vegetarian, but I often choose vegetarian food. My family and I went to eat at a Cracker Barrel, and I happily ordered the beans and greens from their side dish section, and they also happened to have brown rice. I was pleasantly surprised that they offered such wholesome vegetarian fare, and quite proud of myself for choosing a healthy meal instead of one the many tasty-looking entrees that were loaded with saturated fat. Except that, when my beans and greens arrived, I discovered that both were cooked with ham hocks. (I probably should have guessed!) The brown rice also tasted like there was maybe a chicken boullion cube or something thrown in. I wondered if there was anything on the menu that a vegetarian could eat.

Why it would be such a terrible hardship for a non-vegetarian to have a healthy, delicious meal that doesn’t have meat in it, I do not understand–though I encountered this problem as well my in-laws came to town and I suggested that we go to an excellent (indeed, famous) vegetarian restaurant. I told them ahead of time that it was vegetarian, and asked if that was alright, and they said it was my birthday, and we could go anywhere I wanted. But when we got there, they were dissatisfied with the choices (they thought, what, that this was the sort of vegetarian restaurant that served just a little meat?) and again, I said we could go somewhere else, but my MIL insisted (quite obviously against the feelings of the rest of the party) that it was my birthday, and we should eat at the restaurant of my choosing. So I had a delightful whole-grain stew and enjoyed the uncomfortable company of my sullen, meat-deprived inlaws. sigh

It’s very kind of you to let people bring meat to your dinner, Otto. Not everybody likes tofurkey, and it’s nice of you to be willing to compromise. I think it’s also very nice of you to go to all the trouble of cooking! I’m sure your family will appreciate your extra effort.

The prayer thing is tough. Perhaps you could just have said, up front, to avoid a confrontation at dinner, that you will not be participating if they choose to have a prayer. Anyway, your house, your grub, you get to decide–and I agree that it’s best to make it clear to your guests ahead of time. (I like Rilch’s suggestion, too.)

Good luck! I hope your father’s good will holds out, and that everything goes smoothly.

[Naz]

I think offering to let them bring their own meat is reasonable. Being an omnivore, I’d either do that, or eat other dishes (sounds like a great menu, Otto). As for the prayer thing, if it can possibly lead to trouble, then it’s appropriate to ask your family to not do it at your house. I mean, I wouldn’t try to force my Pagan friends to pray at my table, and I wouldn’t expect them to make me pray to their God/dess. I think you’re doing fine with what’s best for a good Christmas dinner at your place.

[Barbarian]

What the hell’s this ‘grace’ thing? I thought they only did that in bad movies.

Do you do it at regular meals, or just on certain occasions?

[elf6c]

*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl *
**I completely understand where he’s coming from. If I cooked Christmas dinner and everybody came over and just decided to have a prayer, I would be offended and upset. The way I see it, I calmly and politely close my eyes and bow my head when I eat at their homes, because that’s what you do. THeir house, their God, their food, their prayer, whatever. I don’t need to cause a problem. But in my houes and my food, I don’t have to put with it.

Of course, Otto probably has a completely different reason for saying what he said. I’m just adding my two cents… **

My in-laws do the grace thing at their house. I bow my head and shut my mouth. But they do not do it at my place. While we had a bit of a rough start (they are used to getting their way, and I do not compromise on things that are important to me) I get along with them quite well now. For that, I am grateful.

[yosemite]

No…I don’t know about the grace thing. I don’t think I’d appreciate my host trying to micromanage my silent gestures. (Of course, once again, he has the right to ask it, I suppose.)

I completely and totally understand why Otto wants to avoid getting sucked into participating in grace himself. That is totally out of line, for his dad to expect that. NO ONE should be forced to pray, or even pretend to pray, if they don’t want to. So I can completely sympathise with his desire to not be put through that headache.

However, I still think that forbidding them from bowing heads and holding hands is still rather unreasonable. If it is made clear to them beforehand that any pressure to get Otto to participate will not be tolerated, then I don’t know what the big deal is. It’s a low-key, silent thing, and I don’t see why it would take more than a few moments to complete.

I can sympathize if Otto didn’t want to hear them say grace, because no doubt the temptation someone to preach a mini sermon might be too great…but silence? Holding hands? What’s the big deal?

[dangermom]

Semi-hijack–why does tofurkey exist? I mean, why make tofu in the shape and presumably flavor of an animal if you’re vegetarian and don’t eat animal? Why not just have a nice tofu dish, without pretending you’re having meat?

Or do I just not get it?

[Ferret_Herder]

*Originally posted by genie *
Semi-hijack–why does tofurkey exist? I mean, why make tofu in the shape and presumably flavor of an animal if you’re vegetarian and don’t eat animal? Why not just have a nice tofu dish, without pretending you’re having meat?

Or do I just not get it?

Some vegetarians, usually the ones who gave up meat out of dietary considerations (and sometimes humane reasons), still want the taste/texture of meat. Others find they miss the roast turkey around the holidays because of all the pleasant memories associated with it from past dinners.* Others may provide it as a means of consideration for meat-eating guests, if they don’t cook meat for others.

Personally, I’m a vegetarian who cooks meat for my omnivore husband and anyone else who eats in my home, but I do respect the feelings of vegetarians who don’t want to buy/prepare meat in their own homes.

• Thanksgiving night when I was cleaning up after dinner at my house, I was stripping meat off the turkey carcass and breaking up the bones to make turkey broth with. It smelled good to me because I was associating it with holiday memories, but I knew that even sampling some would lead to a “grumpy” digestive tract, since I can’t properly digest meat any longer.

[Breezy]

I guess I don’t understand what harm is done by PRAYING. Even if you don’t believe the same things, isn’t it still nice?

[Kaio]

*Originally posted by Athena *
**I’m all for you choosing the way you want to eat, but forcing it on others is not OK in my book. **

Oh puh-leeze. You’re not capable of eating ONE meat-free meal out of a year?

“Tradition” is no excuse for bad manners. Besides, I thought the “tradition” of spending time with family/those you care about during the holidays ranked higher than what you stuff your face with. Silly me.

And as has been pointed out… meat eaters can eat anything vegetarians eat, and frequently do. The inverse is not true.

Oh, and re: the tofurkey… I think this is a stellar example of how strong the social conditioning is to have a “turkey,” whether real or not, at certain holidays. My sister has even said that it doesn’t feel like a “real” Thanksgiving at her in-laws, because they serve ham; one of my friends asked her mum to provide veggie turkey for her family Thanksgiving meal solely because she was sick of taking crap from her family for not eating turkey (and she normally avoids soy “meat” products.) Food is very much a social thing, especially around holidays. Vegetarian “meats” make these social gatherings go smoother, as well as providing options for vegetarians in a society that never developed much in the way of vegetarian recipes. Try going to a summer cook-out and not eating anything that came off the grill – would feel weird, wouldn’t it? Try making a sandwich for lunch without using cold cuts – what do you put on it? etc.

[Otto]

Why “tofurkey”? Because they couldn’t market a duck.

[pepperlandgirl]

I guess I don’t understand what harm is done by PRAYING. Even if you don’t believe the same things, isn’t it still nice?

Uh…what?
Here’s the way I see it. I worked for the money, to buy the food, that I’m cooking and serving. Their God had nothing to do with ithe meal I’m providing. By praying in my houes when they know I’m an atheist and that prayer makes me distinctly uncomfortable, they’re saying “We expect you to respect our beliefs and world view, but we don’t give a fuck about yours.”
Nope, sorry, not gonna cut it. If I’m respectful in their house, then I expect the same in mine, whether or not it’s “tradition,” “nice”, or anything else.

[Biggirl]

Well, if Dad is a good Christian, he’ll be praying in his heart. The heart he’s treating to that nice succulent pig he brought along to dinner. That’s what my dad would do.

[Athena]

*Originally posted by Kaio *
**Oh puh-leeze. You’re not capable of eating ONE meat-free meal out of a year?

“Tradition” is no excuse for bad manners. Besides, I thought the “tradition” of spending time with family/those you care about during the holidays ranked higher than what you stuff your face with. Silly me.

And as has been pointed out… meat eaters can eat anything vegetarians eat, and frequently do. The inverse is not true.
**

er, yeah, I can eat a meat free meal once a year. In a given week, I probably go 2-4 days not eating meat. But I have no desire to have a non-traditional holiday meal, and I can sympathize with others who don’t particularly want to. If I had been invited to a Christmas dinner that featured, say, Pizza, I’d feel the same way I feel about a vegetarian Christmas dinner.

IMO, Otto displayed bad manners with the email he sent his parents. He came across to me (and others on this thread) as non compromising and ready for a fight. If he had, say, called his mother and said “Can we come up with a Christmas dinner that we’ll all look forward to and enjoy?” I’d think MUCH higher of him than his original plan of springing a veggie meal on them.

I’ve cooked many a holiday dinner where I’ve invited veggie guests. I did not expect them to eat the turkey, nor did I figure they’d get along on corn and cranberry sauce. What’s wrong with politely and maturely discussing the dinner and coming up with entrees that please everyone? If that means having turkey AND a veggy entree, so be it. Or going to a restaurant that is not veggy nor a steak house, but one that serves both veggy and meat entrees.

[Kaio]

*Originally posted by Athena *
IMO, Otto displayed bad manners with the email he sent his parents. He came across to me (and others on this thread) as non compromising and ready for a fight. If he had, say, called his mother and said “Can we come up with a Christmas dinner that we’ll all look forward to and enjoy?” I’d think MUCH higher of him than his original plan of springing a veggie meal on them.

Actually, I got the distinct impression that his parents already knew he was vegetarian, and in fact they were the ones who asked if the “restaurant” was vegetarian. This is hardly “springing” it on them, they knew perfectly well what to expect.

And, bad manners? Who pitched a hissy fit when he didn’t get his way and then slammed down the phone? And Otto did offer a compromise – he told them to bring their own meat, if they had to have it.

But quite frankly, the polite thing to do would be to eat what your host serves. There’s nothing but petulance standing in the way of any meat-eater consuming and enjoying a vegetarian meal. I would have responded the same way. If my company is less important to you than eating a dead bird, you can stay at home.

What baffles me is that people even view veggie meals an an issue.

[yosemite]

*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl *
Here’s the way I see it. I worked for the money, to buy the food, that I’m cooking and serving. Their God had nothing to do with ithe meal I’m providing.

How do you prove that to them? Why would you insist on trying to control their silent and relatively unobtrusive actions?

By praying in my houes when they know I’m an atheist and that prayer makes me distinctly uncomfortable, they’re saying “We expect you to respect our beliefs and world view, but we don’t give a fuck about yours.”

But it cuts both ways, doesn’t it? What is so offensive about someone doing something silently in your presence, as long as they are not expecting you to join in, or even acknowledge them? What would you do if someone silently bowed their head and held hands with the person next to them? Insist they leave? Yell at them, “I know you are thinking religious thoughts, get the hell out of my house”? Huh?

I think that you have to choose which hill you want to die on. Speaking for myself, if someone insisted that I not be allowed to bow my head and silently “think” something they don’t agree with, then I would not feel very comfortable in their home. Frankly, I would question what kind of of host they were being. YMMV, and obviously does.

[Shodan]

I am sort of oscillating back and forth on this, so maybe if I post, that will nail down my thoughts.

I suppose I would come down on the side of “your house, your rules”, and let your parents decide whether or not to attend (which you apparently did).

If it were me invited (I am a non-vegetarian Christian), I would attend, eat whatever was served, and excuse myself a few minutes before dinner was served to go into another room (or outside, off your property if you insisted) and pray, along with anyone else who wanted to join in.

Never had tofu turkey. Is it better than it sounds?

Regards,
Shodan

[Otto]

Maybe I should clarify that my prohibition on grace is dealing only with the “all the food is prepared, before we start eating everyone will hold hands around the table and everyone will bow their heads and everyone will close their eyes while a prayer to Jesus is spoken aloud.” I would never suggest that, should my dad or any other guest in my home wish to close their eyes in a moment of silent prayer before eating, they would not be allowed to do so. What I object to is the formalized ritual and the fact that I had previously been coerced into participating in it.

And, for everything you ever wanted to know about Tofurkey but were afraid to ask. IMHO it’s quite tasty. My mom’s had some before because once when I was there, since I no longer remember what actual turkey tastes like, I asked her to compare and contrast. She liked it.

[pepperlandgirl]

But yosemitebabe, there is a difference between formal prayer and silently bowing your head. I got the feeling tht Otto meant former prayer (which he just posted is what he meant.) And that’s what I was talking about too. Can I stop you from bowing your head and silently, to yourself, thanking God? No. I don’t really care, and I wonder what was said in mine or Otto’s post that indicated we would be the thought police?

[yosemite]

pepperland: But that was what I was talking about all along. I clearly stated from the beginning that I could understand and sympathize with an atheist not wanting to be sucked into participating in a vocal prayer. So I asked—what about a silent prayer? (And I wasn’t the only one that asked.) The kind of prayer the atheist was not expected to join in?

And you didn’t bother to acknowledge that you saw a difference between the kind of prayer I was describing, and the traditional “let’s all join hands and pray aloud” kind of prayer. So what was I to think? I had no reason to believe anything other than that in your mind, there was not much difference. “Grace” is also, to many people, a ritual of bowing your head and having a moment of silence. (It is to me, in many instances, and yes, I do it on a regular basis.)