My FIL

I need to get this off my chest.

Several weeks ago, my 80 year old father in law requested one of my my sisters in law to organize the rest of his four kids to provide him with regular payments into his bank account of $25 each. No question that we are going to do it, but considering his past it really galls me.

This man has always had a spending problem. My wife tells me that when she was growing up, her parents were always "borrowing " money from his long time widowed mother in law whom I met in a nursing home (he’s been “borrowing” from us for years). It wasn’t that he wasn’t making enough money. For example one year he bought himself an expensive camera and accessories. When his wife told him they couldn’t afford it, he said he would rather give up his car than the camera. This from a travelling salesman which he was at the time. Oh sure. In a time when most families were on one income, his wife who had TB in her earlier years had to work outside the home to make ends meet.

Well after his wife died 25 years ago, he sold his house, the cabin, quit his lucrative government job as a director of an alcohol recovery centre and at the age of 55 enrolled in a university. Right on you might say unless you have a chance to understand his motivation. Both his brothers have successful careers resulting from a university education. Now he is as good as them. Oh, I should mention that he bought himself a brand new 1200 cc Honda touring motorcycle with all the bells and whistles at that time.

My FIL is a suave man. He loves to dance. Since my MIL died he’s gone through a slew of girl friends. The ones we hope he sticks with are discarded. More recently, quite often he would travel all over western Canada with his girl friends in his diesel volkwagon, either a brand new Westphalia, brand new diesel Rabbit and two years ago his brand new diesel Golf.

Well here’s where hes at now. Eighty years hold, with Canadian government pensions, living in a subsidized small apartment paying $250 a month. The problem is that his most recent girl friend and likely the last, has moved away 60 miles and he must visit her every weekend. Compounding that problem for him his the substantial increase in diesel prices now higher than gasoline. He has absolutely no assets considering his car is financed.

But what irks me as well is that a lot of people think he is a great guy. He is absolutely fun to be around as long as there is someone else in the room besides his immediate family. This guy can tell stories like no one else. And joke like no one else. But when its just his kids around he relaxes and become morose.

Another problem I have with him is his inability to refrain from commenting on my wife’s and daughters weight. Let me tell you they are all very attractive. Most recently he came to visit just before supper, and told my 14 year old daughter she was fat, which is utter bullshit. No I’m not she said. Yes you are he said.

It is only fair to me to mention that he does do volunteer work at the hospital counselling old people on wellness in their declining years. That allows him to utilize his university education. Considering what a mess he’s in right now I really find it ironic.

It has always been clear to me that in many ways my FIL was far more sophisticated than my own dad who died at the age of 81 several months ago. My dad was a semi-skilled non-union worker with almost zero people skills who most people would rather ignore. Yet, my mother and step mother never had to work outside the home. He had eight kids and worked his ass off to support them with long hours, and never spent a cent on himself until he comfortably retired. Even in his retirement years he donated and lent money to several of his kids. He may not have had the intelligence and personality that my FIL has, but let me tell you he has 100 times my respect.

And what would happen if your wife just said “no” to his request for a subsidy?

Agree, and regularly deposit $25 each–yearly.

To Qadgop

I never even considered that.

I guess for him he might not be able to visit his girl friend, and be paying off his credit card debt for the rest of his life.

For my wife, she would be the shmuck because the rest of his kids are going ahead with it as well.

Well, if nothing changes, then nothing changes.

Especially if noone lets FIL suffer the consequences of his actions, but instead bails him out whenever he requests it. It’s not like he’s being deprived of needed health care or nutrition.

YMMV, but 'round here, we try to detach with love, and not enable bad behavior. Not always easy if others are trying to pass judgement on our actions, but it has always worked better for us in the long run.

Good luck with that. And Prettig kerstfeest en een gelukkig nieuwjaar!

I gotta be a bit of a wet blanket on this pity party.

Qad, the guy’s 80. Is re-training him for the “long run” really the best use of everyone’s time and emotional energy? Your advice would be inarguable for a 4 year old. But an 80 year old? You can balance a lousy $25 a month against the remainder of the time left with the guy, and come down on the “it’s never too late for discipline” side of the equation? I say choose your battles. If he hasn’t learned it yet, he ain’t gonna learn it now. I may of course be wrong about this, but your approach seems to me to be more about personal pride and showing who’s boss than it is about finding a way to make everybody’s time together as happy a memory as possible.

And Dutchman, I understand the whole father vs. father-in-law thing, and it’s perfectly understandable that you have stronger feelings about your own father. There’s really no need to compare them. But since you’ve done that (“you opened the door, counselor”), I gotta tell you that your standards of comparison sadden me. In the plus side on your dad’s ledger, almost all your praise of him is based on financial considerations. All respect, but you make him sound like a bit of a mis-prioritized guy who was not a whole lot of fun to be around: you make it sound like he worked himself to death rather than spend more time with his family, and like he didn’t have a lot of friends. Your father in law, while not winning any awards for financial brilliance, sounds like he’s a happy guy with lots of friends who’s more interested in sharing happiness with people than in counting pennies in the dark. Yet, all your praise is reserved for your father, times 100.

Now again, it’s perfectly understandable that you would love your dad 100 times more than your FIL. But judging your FIL by your dad’s standards would be just as pointless as the reverse.

I wonder if some of your bitterness toward your father stems on some level from missing your father; some anger that your dad, who did so right by you, went first, and here comes this guy, whose values are so different from your dad’s who’s still got more years ahead of him. Years you wish your dad had.

I’m honestly very sorry you lost your dad; all the more so, sincerely, for having gone through the thoughts that I went through in writing this post. I envy you; my dad is a monstrous bastard who can’t die soon enough to satisfy me. You’re very lucky to have had the dad you had. But it sounds to me like you’re almost as lucky, in very different ways, to still have your FIL as well.

I say now’s not the time to retrain him, and that $25 a month is the bargain of a lifetime, considering the joy for living your FIL will be sharing with you in the little time he probably has left.

(bolding mine)

This paragraph tells me all I need to know to understand why Dutchman prefers his father’s lifestyle to that of his FIL (in addition to mom with TB having to work to help support the family and FIL’s insensitivity to his daughter and granddaughter).

If you can afford it, give him the allowance. If it would make you feel better about it, give a similar amount to someone who deserves it.

Better yet, tell him sorry, but as he so nicely :rolleyes: pointed out, you’ll be using that money for Weight Watchers.

lissener, you make it sound as though the way a person handles his finances is completely irrelevant. Well, it’s not. Dutch isn’t saying that he respects his Dad more than he does his FIL because Daddy was richer. It’s because Dad was financially responsible and FIL is not, and yet all the kids are being required to throw money at this bottomless, financially irresponsible pit, just so that he’ll be able to visit his girl. This man who was so bad with money that his wife–who had tuberculosis, fer cryin’ out loud–had to get a job to make ends meet. This man, who would rather deprive his family of transportation than not buy a fancy camera.

And ol’ FIL may have lots of friends, but there’s no way I could respect a man who’s big laughs with his buddies, and a total craphead to his own family. Some grandfather, telling his granddaughter that she’s fat. Even if she was, Grandpa shouldn’t say anything about it–not his place. And the real party guy with outsiders, but a Gloomy Gus around the people he should love the most. What an ass.

Consider giving him the money but depriving him of your company, including cutting off his visits to your place. Apparently he prefers other people to his own family, anyway.

As I see it, you’re never too old to learn to be responsible.

But each individual involved, along with their close family members, like Dutch and his wife will have to decide what’s right for them to do in their situation. I just don’t see it as automatically right or necessary that they chip in, unless they decide that it is.

Well, whatever you do, don’t do this unless you’re going for some sort of stupidity combined with passive-aggressive behavior award of the year.

Personally, I’d talk it over with him. If you trust that he truly is being fiscally responsible with his other money and this extra cash will make a huge difference in his social life then I might lean towards giving him the gas money. Social support networks are important for everyone, especially widowers, and giving the $25 might truly make this man happier.

The more likely story, however, is that he continues his fiscal irresponsibility with other aspects of his life and if he really wants to see this woman, he’ll prioritize.

Talk with him about it, but I’m leaning strongly towards a, “no.”

Perhaps you should take the time to put $25 a month to your own retirement.

Considering that the OP is (apparently) being passive-nonaggressive by letting his FIL insult his daughter and wife in his own home, I figured it was an improvement for all of their lives.

But he’s dealing with an elderly father-in-law. If he called the guy out, his wife would have been put in the middle. Bad enough that she has to deal with an insensitive father without also having to mediate husband and FIL.

How does she feel about all this anyway? Have any of his kids ever stood up to him, told him how they felt?

Well… If my mother (or my late father) wasn’t financially responsible but upon reaching 80, wanted 25 /month so she/he could see her/his bf/gf, I would give them without a second thought. As ** Lissener ** stated, you're not going to reeducate a 80 yo, and 25 isn’t much to make sure that dad last would be able to enjoy his last years. I think that it’s pretty cool to have a 80 yo dad who still has girlfriends :slight_smile: .
What you said would make sense for a 20 yo son or 40 yo brother, but a 80 yo dad? Bah… just enjoy the fact that he’s still alive and kicking, say I. Forget about the “bottomless, irresponsible pit” part, and other minor grievances, and hope you too will be still touring irresponsably the country with your bf/gf when you’ll reach this age…

Um, no I didn’t. I never suggested there was such a black and white dichotomy; that’s your filter speaking. I was talking about big picture balance; about NOT being lost in such a false dichotomy.

Ahhh. So it’s payback time. Long’s we’re clear on that.

No question; grandfather should be called on the “fat” thing. False dichotomy again, though, if that’s an excuse to write him off completely. Where’s the ice floe?

And the way he interacts with his family might possibly be due to a lifetime of criticism and judgement. Might not, too; just sayin. Doesn’t sound like he’d necessarily feel like his usual ebullience is much appreciated at home. He might even feel he’s doing what’s expected of him in dialing it down a notch when it’s just family.

Ever think that calm and quiet might be the “real” him, and he’s just an attention whore with outsiders? There’s always room to interpret a situation in the worst possible light.

Boy I gotta tell you after reading this thread, I am torn. I can see both sides of this. I would hate to throw $25 bucks down a rat hole.
But then I miss my dad terribly, and if $25 bucks could have kept him in my life longer I would have galdly paid it. If somehow I could get him back into my life, a 100 times that amount would be worth it to me. But this is not my call.

I think it is the wife’s decision.

How much shit will she get from dad, and siblings if the answer is no to the $25? Is that amount of shit worth an extra $25/month? Assuming that the $25 won’t change your lifestyle and prevent you from paying your bills, I suggest you consider this: Is family harmony and having a father / grandfather around is worth $25 / month?
For many people this is a no-brainer yes. For other people (those that had a toxic childhood) the answser is no way Jose.
I agree with Lissener You will not retrain an 80 year old with respect to money. To borrow the punch line from that old joke It is very difficult to do, you will get very poor results, and it really anoys the pig (old man in this case).
About the fat crack, old folks sometimes tend to lose their social inhibitions. I saw it happened with my father before the Alzheimer’s turned him mind into large curd cottage cheese. I think that at a certain age, old folks just get a fuck it, I will say what I think attitude. Coupled with that they may be viewing things through a way different filter than you and me makes for some rather direct comments.

One, he could live another year or so, or, being of That Stubborn Generation, could live another 15. He’d do it too. Just to keep the money coming.

That is alot of $25 into his bank account. Remember that Old French lady who lived to be 126 or so. She out lived her renter of 40 years whom she promised to leave the apartment too after she died. I think of her alot.

I’m more along the line of Qadop’s line of thinking and you can do the excuse of
" Look the gas prices are hitting us too."

But, another quasi-solution can be instead of putting it in the bank where you won’t know what exactly he does with this cash, how about a gift card for a gas station. then, when the Girlfriend thingie is over and he isn’t driving so much, he can use the extra cash to take up smoking and drinking his way to an early grave! Everyone needs a hobby!
Here is the dealie:

You did not create this problem.
It is not your problem to resolve.

It is a trainwreck in slowmotion, I know. But try to enjoy it from a antrhopological detachment, if you can. The Pronoun ‘YOU’ also refers to your wife and her siblings, FYI.

And further down the road:

How you handle this does directly affect how your daughters handle freeloaders and mooches. Think about that one.

The question is, how is your wife handling this emotional blackmail panhandling?

The old french lady

Insert cold calculating moment

Two questions:

Do you know his true financial state?

Are your wife/kids in his will?

This is the part that bothers me the most. The way you describe it, it is an ongoing problem, not a one time throw a way comment on your wife’s and daughter’s appearance.

Since you say you are going to go along with giving him money anyway (I imagine for your wife’s sake) here is what I would do.

I would tell him you have given his “request” some thought, and have decided you would give him $25 a month, as the others are. But that you will do so only if certain conditions are met. He violates the conditions, the money stops. The conditions are that he never again make any comments reguarding his daughter’s, or your daughter’s appearance again, unless it is a nice compliment. If he ever calls your daughter or your wife fat again, or says they need to lose weight, look like they are getting bigger, anything negative, the deal is off.

If you have any other issues that can be added in, add them to the deal. If you just give him the money each month, it is going to eat at you. Your resentment will show up, and probably cause more problems. If you can somehow make giving the $25 result in some kind of benefit for you and your family, it will make this situation much easier for you to deal with.

My husband did something similar, and it has worked out well. I am still able to do what I think is my responsibility to my mother, and he has made it clear to my mother that if she continues her lifelong pattern of saying cruel things to me, she will have consequences to face now. That has been incentive for her to curb her tongue, which has made all our lives much more pleasant.