Well, I’m glad someone finally just said it straight out.
He cheatedf on her, period, and please don’t anyone hand wave that away. Doing something with an actual woman that makes you orgasm is cheating.
Now he’s going BACK to the place he cheated on her to visit the same women.
It’s vile and he’s a pig.
I don’t understand it either, and I’m male. I’ve been in a strip club only once, and that was because it was the beginning meeting place for the Cacophony Society. The women who were “performing” were just pathetic.
Yeah - another vote for PunditLisa’s post.
There used to be a show on HBO about strippers, was it G-String Divas? They showed the girls behind the scenes and explained very clearly that it was absolutely just a business for them.
Rather ruined my husband’s fun, but better to hear it from them than from me.
I’m so sorry, DoperChic. No advice or anything, just–that’s really rotten and I hope he comes to his senses.
I guess this is kind of off-topic, but: My stepfather left my mother for a stripper. He, too, thought the stripper was interested in him as a person and not just his wallet; he didn’t see reality until his money ran out and the stripper left him. He also had tons of other issues and I was frankly glad to see him go, but the stripper thing is what ended the marriage. It does happen.
I’ve since spent quite a bit of time on a message board for strippers and have seen whole threads about finding/maintaining a relationship with a “sugar daddy”, and it doesn’t seem to matter a whole lot if the sugar daddy is already married. I would provide cites but I don’t think linking to other boards is allowed.
Yes, I’m sure that most strippers are above board and stick to dancing for money, but there are a few who are out to hustle men for every penny they can get, in and out of the club. Again, I came to this conclusion after witnessing it in action, and I now know that what happened to my stepfather isn’t an isolated incident.
Would I trust my fiance in a strip club? Hell yes, because I trust my fiance. But I wouldn’t tell DoperChic she is overreacting, because she isn’t just like “OMG HE’S GONNA SEE TITTIES”; she is upset because her fiance has given her a good damn reason to be. My mom trusted my stepdad until he proved he was too naive to deserve it. Well, naive and too much of a big fat cheater. 
And this is the true crux of the matter. Doperchic & her husband do not have agreed rules.
She has her set of rules for him, and he has his set of rules for him. And they aren’t the same rules. And, unsurprising, the responses here are generally breaking right down gender lines on whose set of rules should apply to him.
In my opinion, he is being a little selfish, and she is vastly overreacting. I would not live with someone who was prone to reacting in that way. And she’s perfectly within her rights to declare that she doesn’t want to live with someone who is more selfish than she wants.
What neither of them, nor I, have is the right to insist that some other adult person live by their rules. Ask, sure. Want, of course. But the healthy thing to do is accept what you can’t (and shouldn’t) change, or decide that leaving is better than accepting.
Wow. A lot of replies have been posted since my last post. I’ll get to them in a moment. But first, I thought I should post an update.
Hubby came home last night just after 1:30. I met him at the door, more upset and madder than I have been in a very, very long time. We then had our first ever (and hopefully last ever) real true screaming mad fight. It was as if all of my emotions tumbled out at once. I made it explicitly clear to him just how much he had hurt me, both by what he did last year and what he did last night.
It felt like we went around in circles for about an hour. He just couldn’t understand why I felt like what he had done was cheating. The kiss was just her brushing her lips up against his. The same went for her nipple. It was not making out or sucking on her titties, as some of you may have inferred from my earlier statements. He came from her grinding up against him for over 20 minutes, not her actually rubbing his crotch with her hand or anything. Somehow, he used all this to justify that this was OK. That it really meant nothing. That she was just some nameless person there to do the things strippers do.
So I turned things around on him. How would he have felt if I had gone out to a strip club where a guy kissed me like that or licked my nipple like that or grinded up against me to make me cum. He didn’t like that idea too much. I think it really got to him to think about me in that position.
He said he didn’t realize just how much it hurt me for him to be going to the clubs. In his defense, I have always tried to hold back my emotions when it came to guys’ night out sort of stuff. I let him know that I wasn’t comfortable with it, but not the full extent of just how uncomfortable I was about it. Now that he knows, he promised me that he will never go again if I don’t want him to.
In the middle of all this, my mind started racing to all sorts of crazy conclusions. That he only goes to strip clubs because I’m not skinny enough or pretty enough or exciting enough or just plain enough. That I’ll never be enough for him. That he’s going to leave me eventually anyway just like everyone else has in some way. My husband quickly realized that and helped me talk through my concerns. I tried to explain as best I could the extreme difference between what I rationally know to be true and how my warped mind interprets things. We spent a good long time talking about all of it. It was really nice in the end. I am working to slowly merge my two versions of reality, the rational side with the emotional side. My husband truly is an amazing man, husband, and father. I can’t let my past – or one stupid night - get in the way of remembering that.
Last night was one of the craziest emotional rollercoasters I have ever been on in my life. I’d like to think that in the end, I emerged from it with a renewed understanding of my husband’s point of view and even my own point of view. I have to work on making myself take off these shit-colored glasses that I’ve been wearing most of my life. My husband is not my past; he’s not going to hurt me like others have. He may do some crappy things every once in a great while, but no one is perfect. He loves me completely and unconditionally, something that I had sort of lost in the midst of my anger.
We stayed up until after 5 o’clock this morning, reconnecting, talking about everything and anything, and making love. It was truly an amazing experience.
Fear of the unknown can really eat you alive. So I decided that I will go to one of these clubs with my husband to see what really does go on. I think (and hope) that my perception is far worse from the reality. I’m not sure when I’ll go, or if I’ll ever actually get up the courage to go, but if I do, I’ll be sure to post a new update.
So to sum it all up… We had it out pretty brutally, but made up rather passionately. I love my husband and our baby girl more than anything in the world. This situation sucked, but I know that it is one that we will get through together. We won’t be torn apart by it. On the contrary, we’ve become stronger because of it.
I am a male and I think he is being extremely inconsiderate and disrespectful. And I think what he did at his bachelor party was most definitely cheating unless you gave him permission (and you obviously didn’t).
And I don’t want to overreact, but if my wife had such blatant disregard for my feelings, her ass would be out. You made it clear the first time that it was unacceptable behavior, and now he basically says to fuck off I am going again? Fool me once, shame on you. Feel me twice, shame on me.
I am very happy to hear that and I’m so glad that you feel better.
Well, now I see you added the post indicating that your husband wasn’t completely aware of your feelings so I guess most of my post doesn’t stand anymore. Glad to see things worked out.
He knew very clearly that I was uncomfortable with it. He didn’t know that I would be at home crying over it.
Of course he’s trying to make you out to be the “bad guy” - that way he can have his fun without being burdened by guilt. I say this after reading the rest of your post(s) here, as I don’t think the root issue here is looking at half-naked (or 3/4 naked or whatever) women, but rather his conduct.
I can’t help but wonder if you weren’t feeling somewhat like “I’m pregnant, fat, ugly, and unsexy - my man thinks my pregnant body is repulsive” on some level. That doesn’t mean he felt that way (as mentioned, a man can potentially find just about anything arousing) but I do wonder if YOU felt that way and if that in any way contributed to your feelings at the time.
One thing I’ve learned in two decades of marriage - even if it isn’t important to me, if it’s important to my partner I’d better pay attention. Now, to some extent this could be something you two are still working on. I certainly didn’t walk into my marriage knowing that little factoid, it took some time to work out.
And I think it was good that the two of you apparently discussed this ahead of time and worked out an agreement. Perhaps not everyone was entirely happy with said agreement, but that is the nature of compromise. Points awarded here for honest discussion.
“I was drunk” is not a good excuse. It is NEVER a good excuse, unless multiple members of your family were wiped out in a single night by gun-toting pit bulls wearing pink tutus and speaking Hungarian, or other equally unlikely, freakish scenarios, and even then, it’s not a particuarly good excuse. While we all make mistakes in life, including getting stupid drunk, is not something one wants to make a habit of, nor to use as an excuse more than once or twice in a lifetime. At most. “I was drunk” is not a get out of jail free card. I view it as an aggravating and not a mitigating factor. If drinking causes you to lose control then don’t drink.
I agree with other who state dry-humping a stripper to orgasm is cheating. If you’re the sort who thinks oral sex isn’t real sex, or that a woman who has never had her vagina touched by a penis is still virgin despite any and several combinations of oral and anal sex, then I can see where you don’t think it’s cheating. Other people, however, do think it’s cheating because “orgasm” implies sex, and when induced by someone other than your mate it’s cheating. Granted, he wasn’t legally married at the time, but the ceremony was set for two weeks in the future and he’s already fathered a child… this implies a level of commitment, which is usually assumed to exclude sexual encounters outside the relationship.
It means possible prostitution charges, is what it means, regardless of what he may have felt about the situation.
OK, good you have your standards. Did you tell him that, that bluntly?
And that’s why he wants to make you out to be the bad guy this time - to relieve him of guilt. Why is he guilty? Could it be that he knows on some level he’s doing something wrong?
I hate to think this, but some men DO get off on that sort of thing. I hope your husband is not one of them.
Strip clubs catering to women likely don’t care if you’re pregnant or not, so long as you have the money to pay for the entertainment. That scenario you describe is possible - but again, do you perceive your pregnant self as unsexy and unlovable? If so, some - some, not all - of the emotional storm you experineced the first time was self-generated. Which didn’t help the situation at all. But be aware of how your own feelings feed into something like this.
Due to medical issues there are times when I feel I am hideous - because I communicated this to my husband (and it didn’t happen overnight) and he’s a really wonderful person he makes extra effort during those times to reassure me that I am still beautiful to him. Women do get insecure about their appearance far more easily than men do. His insensitivity to your feelings in this regard may be due to ignorance and being inexperienced as a husband, both of which are entirely curable IF he’s willing to learn AND you are will to acknowledge your own feelings and communicate them in a manner he understands.
Not all men think this way. I know my doesn’t. Oh, sure - he likes looking at scantily clad women, at naked women, and I have no doubt he thinks about all sorts of things while he’s looking, but because he’s faithful he doesn’t act on any of those feelings. I’m pretty sure he’s thought about other women while we’re making love, but so far he hasn’t called out anyone else’s name during love making. My husband has managed to remain faithful whether sober or not through twenty years of marriage. He never touched any of the biker chicks at the bar next door, despite their tendency to run around topless. When he was a professional muscian I saw him physically push overeager female groupies away. In other words, it is entirely possible for a man to hold to his word, that is, to (in our case) forsake all others. My husband likes getting his penis stroked as much as the next guy, but finds his personal integrity and honesty more important than a 5 minute massage by a random stranger.
Men who find their dick more important than keeping a promise should stay single.
Did you show that post to your husband when he came home?
You wouldn’t have said this if the thought didn’t cross your mind.
I realize that under most circumstances you trust him - but if you don’t trust him completely do you want to stay married to him? Are you better off with him or without him?
Then why the HELL did he go to another strip club? If he acknowledges that is was, on some level, cheating, how the hell does he justify this?
Um… because cheating on your significant other is wrong.
We’re clearly NOT talking about an “open relationship” or some sort of negotiated exception to the normal rules or polyamory… we’re talking about cheating.
Well, some people DO feel exactly that way about it. And they will condemn you for being an uptight harpy for not agreeing with them. On the other hand, they aren’t you and they don’t live your live. If this is something you can’t tolerate you need to put your foot down. Yes, marriages can and do break up over issues like this. You two really do have to work this out, but if he can’t see that what he did hurt you and that hurting his partner is wrong regardless of whether or not HE thinks your hurt is “justified” or not you will continue to have problems.
I’d say it has more to do with the “no holds barred” environment of his friends at a stag party. It is entirely possible for men to have a bachelor party that does NOT involve dry-humping a stripper until a man creams his shorts. A strip club is merely a conveninent location for these sorts of hijinks and not really the root problem. The root problem is the attitude that a bachelor party makes it OK to engage in activities that one’s mate perceives as cheating on her.
Um… fucking for money is prostitution. Is your husband truly that naive to think that fucking a stripper wouldn’t involve an exchange of money somewhere? Is he naive enough to think strippers have affection for anything other than the money they are earning from their gyrations?
The level of ignorance and/or immaturity required for that is disturbing.
It’s logic like this that has shut up requests for girl-girl threesomes for generations. Grr…I want my double standards back 
I’m glad things are a step towards resolved. Good luck going forward!
A man with money to burn usually meets his ‘match.’
<snip>
I’m inclined to think it was something the OP and her husband hadn’t talked about before marriage. But I think the worse part is that he’s choosing the friends over her. That can’t make for a healthy marriage. The spouse is #1, always…above the kids, above the family, friends, everything.
If I were a married woman, I would probably be very reluctant to tell my husband no about many things. Fishing with the guys? Sure. Watching football? Sure. I wouldn’t make strip clubs the 115th thing I’d said no to because then, he’d rightly claim “You veto everything,” and possibly do it just to spite you.
And I can understand her being upset that he had all that physical contact with another woman. This was beyond ‘look but don’t touch.’ IMO the OP never thought he’d carry it that far. But he did, and when that became clear, it was time for a deep discussion to take place.
While that might not have led to an outright ban or anything, it should have been abundantly clear how the OP felt and how she was likely to perceive future forays. When he went, he was making an informed decision.
One other problem, IMO, is that the rationalizations can get worse and worse. President Clinton didn’t have “sex” with Monica Lewinsky either, right? That wasn’t “cheating” if there was no “sex.”
[It’s taking me forever to post this for some reason…I see DoperChic has been in with an update]
Sorry, OP, I’m glad you have some closure but I’m not entirely sold. Seeing what he saw last time, when you were pregnant, should have left an indelible impression on him. True, he could factor out some hormonal surges from the pregnancy, but still… It really isn’t lost on men when the woman is angry and he knew how bad you felt the first time around.
As Broomstick says:
One thing I’ve learned in two decades of marriage - even if it isn’t important to me, if it’s important to my partner I’d better pay attention.
His behavior reeks of some heavy duty immaturity and/or manipulation. Many guys take the “it’s easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission” path, play stupid to get what they want, etc. I wish you the best, however.
It is possible to cum at a strip club without much effort. Maybe he just gets excited easily. It happens.
Lap dances, nipple sucking, and dry humping are what a good bachelor party is all about. It doesn’t mean you love the stripper or that you don’t love your spouse.
If your spouse doesn’t like strip clubs for whatever reason, it’s not the biggest thing in the world to abstain from them, but…
It’s difficult to comply with requests from your spouse if you think they are irrational (the requests, not the spouse).
Well, your update invalidates much of what my prior post said, but although the argument you two had was undoubtedly uncomfortable it may have been exactly what the two of you needed.
I’m so glad you talked with him and were very explicit about how you feel. The one question niggling me up until this point was, “Well, WE know you’re upset and you didn’t want him to go, but did he know that? Or did your noble desire to not forbid him to go mean you went around tight lipped and he was clueless about your feelings?” So, whatever he knew before, he knows now, and that’s great.
But…(you knew there was a but, right?)
I think if you want to go to a stripclub, you should. But a female patron in a stripclub is never ever going to be treated like a male patron in a stripclub. He’s already told you what happens there, but you’re not likely to see any of that. The second the stripper sees you there, she’s going to take one of two tacks: she’s going to ignore him and focus on other spenders, giving him just enough attention that he’s neither embarrassed by it in your presence or discouraged from coming back another day OR she’s going to flirt with you and try to sell the two of you on a threesome fantasy or him on a lesbian-with-you fantasy - either in dance or in actuality. What you will NOT see is her ignoring you and treating him like she will if he’s alone so you can see what a strip club is like when he’s there without you. You won’t ever see “what really goes on” unless you can forge a particularly compelling male disguise.
What does or doesn’t happen at a club isn’t usually a function of the club, the owners, the neighborhood or the local laws. It’s a function of the women who work there. Some of them truly are in it for the art of the dance, the power of womanhood, or tuition for medical school, and they may really honestly allow look but no touch. Others are whores, plain and simple, and the dance is their advertisement for the real “services” they provide. And you’ll find some of each at every club in America, near as I can tell. There’s no way as his wife for you to know who is who. All you can do is trust him or not.
As for the bit about him thinking that first dancer wanted to sleep with him because she was attracted to him? sigh He may be naive, but he’s not unusual. That’s what most men think. That’s how the game is played. Y’ever see Moulin Rouge!? As Satine (the courtesan, aka whore, aka pricey prostitute) says, “I’m paid to make men believe what they *want *to believe.” It’s a much easier job than making people believe what they don’t want to believe.
And, finally, let me just be clear that I have no problem with prostitution in theory, and I think it should be legalized and would even make an argument in favor of temple prostitution. But this ain’t it. This is sleazy and secret and often non-consensual for the spouses involved, and it’s wrong.
Can I hire you to do my talking from now on? You’ve just said exactly what I was trying to say, only much more better.
Over 50 replies have been posted since last night, so I’ll do my best to reply.
I’m posting this in several parts.
My husband is reading this thread as we speak. Your replies have prompted yet more discussion. It’s not always the easiest thing to discuss, but it is very much needed. This should have taken place a year ago when the incident first occurred, but better late than never, I guess.
He’s 27. I’m 26.
We’re working on this. If my husband realized the full extent of how much his going last night hurt me, he wouldn’t have gone. In retrospect, I don’t think I made it clear enough to him. I stupidly expected him to make the connection between my reaction to what he did last year and my feelings about strip clubs in general. He thought that I was only upset about how far things went. He then figured that so long as he refrained form any physical contact last night, everything was fine.
(Bolding mine)
Ding ding ding!!
I wasn’t bothered by the thought of “look, don’t touch.” I was bothered by the thought of “It’s OK to touch and do whatever. We’re at a strip club, man.” That’s the attitude espoused by hubby’s friends and I detest it.
He isn’t that kind of guy. If he was, I wouldn’t have married him. I was – proud isn’t quite the right word – relieved isn’t either… maybe sort of happily stunned when my husband first confessed about what he had done. With his friends’ approval of what happened, it is highly likely that I never would have found out about it. He knew he was probably in for a hell of a night after telling me. For that, I must give credit where credit is due.
Cheating isn’t something that I signed up for. Again, going to a strip club is something that I did consider to be no big deal. The extent to which he took things that night is the big deal.
So I guess maybe we should go back to staying with our men no matter what for the children’s sake? :rolleyes: