I’m ok with doing one tomorrow, if others have interest.
I sure do. Thing is- I can see enough reasons for all three views- Eternal Torment (granted I can only accept that with a C.S. Lewisian or Eastern Orthodox POV), Annihilation, or even Universal Salvation, so I’d love to see a thread where everyone takes their best shots.
You know, I bet if you spoke to MacArthur, Comfort & Graham about your faith then & your faith now & shared your present concerns, all three of them would say that you have a heart for the Lord & should take it easy & trust more in His Grace than in your own efforts to be submitted enough or to trust enough.
What’s the Eastern Orthodox view?
I think so too. 
I don’t know if it’s THE Eastern Orthodox view, but I’ve read several EOs who look at how the Bible associates Fire with God and concludes that to the Redeemed, the Eternal Presence of the Triune God is delight & blessing; to the Rebellious, it is agony & terror. Thus, in a way, all souls may go to Heaven but not experience it as such- the Glory of God can also be the Lake of Fire.
Re resting in Christ’s grace- Are you more at ease now? I do hope so.
Yes.
I’d certainly be interested in reading it but there’s no chance that I’d be any use at all in the resulting discussion.
Chiming in to ditto this. I love reading these threads but I feel pretty useless. I’m sort of awed by how knowledgeable some of these people are about the Bible, especially Dio.
OK, I’ll start one.
I want to know just what individual came up with that myself.
I’m no expert in the history of religion, but my understanding was that the sadism came first, and this ‘loving’ buisiness was tacked on afterwards. It was quite common for gods to be monsters back in the day - it follows naturally from how harsh nature is.
I suspect the ‘loving’ buisiness evolved in incremental steps: first gods were capricious, then their favor could be temporarily bought (sacrifices for a fruitful season), then their favor could be permanently bought through permanent honors (temples for athena), then we got specific gods favoring tribes regardless, and then we got a god that would allow gentiles under the favored umbrella too. From there the sheer appeal of being loved by a god would be enough to keep the meme growing - despite the lingering remnants of storm god origins still being present.
Now is the time for somebody to step up and prove that not only am I pulling this out of my ass, but that I’m completely wrong too.
It’s actually a brilliant idea if you’re trying to convert people to your religion: Your natural state is damnation and only by joining up do you gain redemption. Really rather clever. We might not think so nowadays because we’re used to it but whoever came up with it deserves a golfclap.
It’s one of the most evil ideas ever created; it justifies any atrocity, any level of violence in the name of religion because you are trying to save people from infinite torment. Kill a billion people by torture but save the soul of one in the process and you’ve done infinite good.
I’d much rather prove that the entire concept was garbage and its originators were pulling it out of their asses. But you can’t prove the unprovable or disprove the ummmmm undisprovable. So, I until someone smarter than me does it, I will simply choose to reject their argument. I mean, if so many different “preachers” of so many different “variations” of various different religions are all yammering
“Believe what i say and do what I say or go to hell”
WHICH one is the right one? It’s like Passcal’s Wager but worse. He thought if you believed in something, it would be a safer bet than not believing… but what if you end up believing the WRONG something in the wrong way? If you joined the wrong church, yer screwed??
The simple answer (if you believe in a God) is to trust in that God, NOT in men.
The end.
Agreed.
When he quoted Bill and Ted.
“Be excellent to eachother!”
Rabbi Hillel boils the entire Talmud down to this.
Jesus says that the whole of the law and prophets hang on this.
“Party on, dudes!”
Only Ecclesastes disagrees with this. The Talmud holds that the humans are currently in charge of the planet and that we should enjoy it.
You would do very well to live by these two maxims. Stop worrying about whether you are really saved. Instead ask yourself that classic question “What would Jesus do?”. Then go and do that.
Being a Jew, I don’t worry much about whether I’m saved. I do worry about whether I am doing the right thing and being a good Jew.
I became more observant and began investigating theological issues after my beloved grandmother died. I asked myself what kind of life she would want me to lead and what I could do that would have made her proud. Seeing as my grandmother was the first generation born in this country and that her father had come here after killing a Russian soldier in self defense during a pogrom, I turned to Judaism.
The vast majority of Judaism simply feels right to me. In some ways, I feel I am not observant enough. I still don’t own a copy of the Talmud. I know almost no Hebrew. But there are times when I feel G-d has chosen me to be His instrument*. In the end, I try to live by the wisdom of Bill and Ted.
*Please note, that this does NOT make me special. I believe anybody can be G-d’s instrument. It’s just a matter of being the most suitable person in the right place and time.
Good post, but then, do you think God cares if you type the word God?
Yes, yes I do. It’s a Jewish thing. In Judaism, any writing of the word G-d, in any language, is sacred text. Sacred text cannot be allowed to touch the ground. It cannot be thrown away, but only disposed of in a special ceremony. Other restrictions apply.
The general consensus among sages is that text in the form of letters on a computer screen, or magnetic domains on a disc* lack a kind of permanency and are not bound by the regulations of sacred text. However, if somebody prints out this thread that paper IS sacred text. In order to prevent the mistreatment of sacred text, most Jews type G-d.
*I assume the same is true of optical memory. I have never gotten a learned opinion on CDs or DVDs. But, I believe they can be sacred text. If I translate the word G-d into 1s and 0s it’s still sacred text. If I represent that binary code with ridges and valleys, it’s still sacred text. If I write those ridges and valleys really tiny, it’s still sacred text.
welp, now I feel like a dick for all the times I’ve typed it.