No need to attribute to malice what can be explained by cluelessness, unless you just want to piss yourself off more for some reason. There’s no reason to feed the paranoia. Is it possible? Sure. Is it helpful? I don’t think so, not if you want to enjoy the rest of your two weeks. Just deal with the situation, and move on.
Definitely agreed that saying, “No, I’d rather this house be just for the two of us” is totally legit.
That said, there’s no wonder that she’s not speaking to you when she wakes up. Your dislike of your stepdaughter is loud and clear, and I’m sure she knows about it, and probably returns the dislike. I suspect she wants to spend some more time with her mom, and sees you as an unfortunate but unavoidable consequence of getting to see her mom more. You’re judging her not only for stuff that she can control (like presumably the refusal to do the student teaching), but also for stuff that’s not worth judging over (the late hours she keeps).
If you can manage to set the boundaries you need, and hold fast to them, without judging her or suggesting it’s because you dislike her, I suspect that’ll make both of you happier.
Idle curiosity here, how far away is stepdaughter’s place?
Update: My wife and both stepdaughters made an outing to do some shopping yesterday afternoon. It was great to have a couple hours of privacy. When they returned, older stepdaughter (not the one who’s been couch-surfing) spent a little time with us and took off for her home and family.
Fast forward to 7:30P last night. Stepdaughter is still camped on couch doing some things for her contract job on her tablet…I think. (She does something along the lines of selling health care plans, but she seems to have no schedule and I’ve never heard of her doing telephone calls or seeing potential clients.) I decided that I might as well start some dinner, though we have only what food we bought for my wife and me. My wife sidles over to me at the counter and whispers to me she will share her portion with stepdaughter.
Me: “Time out. Let’s talk in the bedroom.”
Wife: “I’ve reminded her that we aren’t supposed to have guests overnight.”
Me: “I appreciate it, but either she switches from being a resident to being a visitor or I’m going to call Uber and go to a hotel where I can get some privacy. I’m going to take the dogs for a long walk now so you can discuss things with her.”
When I got back. stepdaughter was gone. I later got a nice text from her apologizing about being oblivious about things. My wife and I had a long discussion and I think we understand each other. We didn’t “got to bed mad,” which is good.
Among our discussions, I opined for the umpteenth time that stepdaughter really needs to concentrate on getting her life together. I respect people and their right to make personal decisions, but if she hasn’t got a handle on things by the age of 31, she’s going to be the same way at 41 and 51. Mom’s not going to be around forever to pull her out of her self-created problems and squeeze our family budget to pay for cars and student loans. She’s no longer 12 and living at home.
Good, I’m glad it got worked out.
That line of “I care about you but I don’t want you here” is a dicey one to tread. I love my sister, my husband, certain friends, but when I need some quiet alone time I really want and need that time. That goes double for something that’s been planned for and I’ve had that time set in my mental schedule.
Love shouldn’t require 24/7 attendance.
My 29 year old daughter lives with us. No, she’s not yet an adult. I don’t know if she ever will be.
I’m glad it worked out. Next time, discuss visitation in advance with your wife. It might have worked better for everyone if you’d rented a slightly larger place, step daughter slept in a room with a door, and you had a pleasant living room to yourself in the morning. And if you knew, and agreed, up front, that she was there.
OP, I’m glad you got some relief.
Obviously this isn’t the first time you’ve talked. Unfortunately, after being ignored, given lip service, ambushed, etc. a person in your shoes can get frustrated and lose your cool and then it looks like you’re unreasonable. I guess in the NBA they say the ref always sees the second foul, the retaliation for the one that went unpunished. If they can’t take a hint or anything less than wrath, that’s on them.
There are definitely people who don’t respect personal boundaries…oBut r maybe they’re just more comfortable with REALLY close ones.
But again, you’re an individual and they need to respect yours. Naturally you’ll allow your wife to spend time with her but that doesn’t have to include you.
I guess DiL is past this age now but I thought it was a very interesting read on how it can arise, the psychology involved, etc. Maybe DiL is stalled here.
https://www.seniormag.com/caregiverresources/articles/caregiverarticles/parenting/adult-children.htm
There are reasons why birds kick their youngsters out of the nest and make them fly. It’s because the baby birds are too afraid to do it on their own, and if the baby isn’t kicked out, it will never develop the wing strength to fly later when they are heavier. Substitute humans into this idea and the same holds true.
This concerns me. It seems kind of passive-aggressive to cook a meal planning to exclude someone who’s at the house, as a way to pressure them to leave. Your wife’s instincts to feed guests/family members is a pretty normal and understandable one, and your prepping food for two people instead of three is not a great way to handle it, IMO.
Would it not have been better to talk with your wife before you started cooking? Talk to the step-daughter and say, “Hey, we didn’t buy enough groceries for three people, I don’t want you to feel weird, but have you figured out your dinner plans?” or something like that?
It’s coming across like you have boundaries in your head, and your wife and stepdaughter are crossing them, and you’re resenting them instead of telling them about the boundaries. It doesn’t make you the bad guy to tell them what your boundaries are.
I’m glad you talked with your wife. It may be better to do so earlier next time, before you pick up the spatula.
I keep starting responses in my head and then mentally backspacing.
First, I completely sympathize with you on the issue of your stepdaughter inviting herself to stay in your cabin. That was completely out of line, and if this is typical behavior for her, it’s no wonder you don’t like her. You had every right to decline to let her stay with you. It was also unfair of your wife to put you on the spot the way she did, although I don’t see evidence that she did it intentionally. I find it more plausible that she simply would have been delighted to have her daughter stay, and didn’t maneuver quickly enough in terms of realizing you’d feel differently, realizing your refusal would be awkward, and coming up with a better way to finesse the situation. For that, you should forgive her.
But…I don’t think you come out of this smelling like roses either. It’s ironic that we’re having this conversation about your stepdaughter not respecting boundaries, and at the end of it all you’re lecturing your wife about how her adult daughter needs to get her life together. That is, frankly, not your place. Obviously you and your wife have a shared interest in your community property, and you’re within your rights to express that you don’t want to continue supporting the daughter financially. Depending on how you two negotiate money in general, even that may not be totally up to you. (Some couples agree that they must agree on any major expense; others have more of a yours, mine, and ours agreement, which would make it inappropriate for you to tell her what she can’t do with hers.) Your criticism of her sleep schedule comes across as rather petty, as well.
You acknowledge your stepdaughter likes spending time with her mother, but I suspect your wife also really likes spending time with her daughter. Shocker, I know. But have you thought about what that really means? Do you care enough to make an effort to facilitate that mother-daughter time in a way that doesn’t make your wife feel like she’s being forced to choose between you? Or do you just seethe every time the daughter enters your space, silently communicating your incurable contempt and resentment to both of them? Perhaps on some level they both figure you’re going to be a sourpuss whenever she’s around, whether that’s for a pleasant evening or two straight weeks, so they might as well get in their time together. Perhaps if they felt that you liked her (if only because your wife loves her), respected her (if only as far as saying to yourself “she’s a grown woman; she’ll figure it out”), and only objected to having your privacy compromised (instead of objecting to everything about her), these boundaries would be easier to negotiate.
…OUR family budget to pay for cars and student loans? That makes it partly his place IMO.
Where’s this coming from? In the OP he states:
This isn’t a new thing.
Yet this sounds reasonable:
I still don’t understand why she wasn’t sleeping in the bunk room instead of the living room?
Regardless, I totally understand your frustration. Sitting on the sofa staring at her phone or her computer is not visiting with her mother. There is no reason she needs to be in your space while doing that. I am an introvert myself, and private time is especially important for me when I have to go out of town or have other interruptions in my routine.
But you have to understand that for the extroverts, having a bunch of people around is invigorating. The more the merrier is actually true for some people. Actually, it’s true for most people, I think. So it is incumbent upon us to explain our needs gently, and repeatedly, as we are the outliers. Otherwise, it looks to the extroverts as if we are total a-holes who are constantly angry at everybody. When really we’d be happy to have them around, we just need time to recover between visits.
I would also suggest that you’d be a lot happier if you work on forgiveness. You need to let bygones be bygones and not pile them up on top of every tiny interaction. The only person suffering under the weight of that stack of resentments is you.
Kids, even adult kids, are going to come to their parents when they need help. And parents will always want to help their kids. That will never end. It’s a part of your wife, and if you love her unconditionally, then you have to find a way to love that too. Be her sounding board, and her support in keeping her contributions reasonable. But don’t expect her to cut her daughter off completely; that’s just not how love works.
The day is not so far off when you two may need her help. She may surprise you and be the one who comes through for you.
I addressed that, in the very next sentence after the part you quoted:
IOW, if they share finances completely, yes, he can say “we’re not bailing her out again.” That’s different from “she needs to get her life together.” She gets to make her choices; he gets to make his. That’s what boundaries are. And again, if they don’t share finances completely–if, say, they each contribute a certain amount to a joint account for shared bills and each have the rest of their paychecks to spend as they please, then he doesn’t get to tell his wife not to give her share to her daughter.
I cannot for the life of me make sense of how this is a response to what I wrote. What does the newness or oldness of this issue have to do with whether the wife wants her daughter to spend more time with them and whether she feels like she has to choose between her daughter, and her husband who hates her daughter?
So you think it’s more of a global condemnation of her life? OK. Fair enough, I suppose. My hunch is that she can lead her life as she sees fit but he doesn’t want to finance it.
ISTM that they must have gone around on these issues before. When you ask,
I assume that all those angles have been covered over the years. Over the course of many discussions, it all comes out—that’s my new vs old distinction.
Mrs. L and I have arguments and discussions that have evolved over time. “Now that I’ve had a few days to think about what you said last week, I see your point. But don’t forget that also means blah blah blah.” The DiL issues boomerang for OP, but maybe husband/wife don’t go deeper or expand on them each time, pulling in satellite issues? I’d be surprised but maybe.
I think you’re taking OP’s anger as an inherent cause and I’m perceiving it as a cumulative effect.
Cause: He never liked daughter in law. He’s angry and that’s causing resentment and the wife feels she has to choose etc.
-or-
Effect: Over the years he’s been burned enough times (getting ambushed, money not getting paid back, whatever) that he has come to dislike interacting with daughter in law where his wallet might be dragged in.
As I quoted
I must be missing something. This sounds like “OK, we’ve had issues here but she’s still part of the family and I’m willing to offer some terms.”
Contrasting with what you wrote:
I think it’s about respecting OP’s boundaries, which apparently were violated several times over the years. OP says: “Among our discussions, I opined for the umpteenth time that stepdaughter really needs to concentrate on getting her life together.” So it has been discussed, but not solved…resurfaced again later, lather, rinse, repeat. And like I said, these recalcitrant discussions tend to grow and include finer points as time passes, so I assumed that the years have filled in the spaces.
I would add that driving 700 miles puts him solidly in the “weary traveler” category, and he shouldn’t be bugged or surprised or inconvenienced more than necessary.
A lawyer once told me of divorce, “Money if often the issue and rarely the problem.” In other words people will argue about it as a proxy. I wonder if OP is a “planner” and DiL/mom are “spontaneous” sorts, for instance, naturally causing friction from time to time. But they’ve all had many years to get to know each other (and accomodate each other) if they were so inclined.
Then it comes down to everybody respecting everybody else. To explore that for a moment, I’m not talking about trumpet fanfares and parades and a huge to-do when they come into town. I’m talking about things like the guest going to bed late and expecting them to tiptoe around the kitchen because the guest doesn’t get up as early. Really…when in Rome, you know? Or being ambushed as she horns in for dinner, expecting to beg forgiveness instead of ask permission. Things like this say, “My needs and desires override yours, even if we’re under your roof.” That’s a lack of respect IMO.
No, I absolutely acknowledged that the stepdaughter could be the cause. I started off by condemning the stepdaughter for inviting herself over, and even said that if that’s typical behavior for her, it’s no wonder OP doesn’t like her. You’d have to be reading pretty selectively to miss that.
BUT, there’s a but here so big it could inspire another Sir Mix-a-Lot ode. This isn’t just about OP and his stepdaughter; it’s about OP and his wife. It sounds to me like this mother wants to spend time with her daughter–a lot of time–and perhaps also wants to help and support her. If that’s the case, it doesn’t matter that the daughter may be undeserving of such indulgence; this is about what his wife wants. That’s the issue here. OP can’t just pour his poison all over the daughter without it splashing onto her mother. OP needs to find a way to tamp down his negativity out of love for his wife.
Honestly, my boundaries were, “She isn’t supposed to be here and my wife bought only enough food for two people.” It’s a rental house, so we don’t even have anything to stretch what we had.
I probably would have had a little different attitude if stepdaughter had said, “Hey! Why don’t I take us out to dinner?” I would have ended up paying, but that wouldn’t have been a concern.
“Supposed to be here” isn’t really a boundary, it’s a judgment. How much food your wife bought isn’t a boundary, it’s a fact.
I think it’d be better to rephrase those as, “I’d like this cabin to be for my wife and me, and I’d like to not have to go get more groceries, and I’m not interested in stretching our two-person food three ways.” Good boundaries are generally in the first person.
With those quibbles about phrasing, those boundaries make sense. It sounds to me like the resentment comes from folks crossing the boundaries, and from your not clearly articulating those boundaries up front.
I don’t mean “up front” like “before the trip,” because you couldn’t know. But IMO you’d be better off articulating them before you start cooking dinner for two.
Since the immediate issue has been resolved, I should probably just thank everyone for their comments and let it go. But a couple posts mentioned my comments about financial support. In our case, my wife and I married when we were both 60 YO. We are retired (pretty much) and don’t commingle our separate incomes, savings, pensions, or even the house mortgage. For this reason, I have been basically hands-off about the financial assistance my wife has chosen to give to stepdaughter. I make my feelings clear, but I respect that it is my wife’s money and her decision.
I love both my stepdaughters, but one of them has really been an issue. I have been hoping for the last 14 years that things would improve, but my hope is fading.
I thought I acknowledged that, sorry. And I think we agree that it depends on whose money is being spent etc.
Again, I want to say that I really do sympathize; your stepdaughter would probably drive me crazy too. You should be able to enjoy a vacation with your wife without this kind of hassle.
But, if I may offer some more advice that is even more clearly unsolicited at this point? There’s an equation I’ve benefited from that might help you too:
Reality - expectations = happiness
In case that was unclear: when reality exceeds your expectations, you will be happy. When reality is less than your expectations, you will be unhappy. So to the best of your ability, try to lower your expectations to the point they’re already met. Your stepdaughter…is who she is. Your wife still loves her and wants her around, and wants to help. It will probably ever be thus. Hoping it’ll be otherwise is a recipe for misery.
That’s not to say you can’t or shouldn’t try to insulate yourself from the adverse effects of this dynamic. You can say no to unwanted guests. You can set conditions and ground rules when you do agree to guests. You can make arrangements, knowing your wife wants more family time than you do, to absent yourself from some of these gatherings. In fact, you should–far better to set your boundaries clearly than to acquiesce and quietly seethe. When she wants to sleep over? “No, that’s not going to work for me.” When she wants more of your wife’s money (not yours), or she wants to sleep till 10 and not use her degree and play on her phone? Let it go.
This is not “hands off” and it certainly isn’t “respect”. Every time you make your feelings clear, you make your wife feel torn, like she has to chose between helping her daughter, which is clearly important to her, and the respect of her husband. You are shaming your wife, by making it clear to her that you think she failed as a parent and is continuing to fail by acting in a way her own judgment tells her is correct. You’re making her chose between having your respect/esteem and living up to her own ideas about how best to support her daughter.
All this bullshit is your wife struggling to balance these two things, to mollify you while still being responsible. Just let it go. It’s her money. Her daughter. Try very hard not to have an opinion.