I am assuming that the wolves will be able to determine their roles fairly quickly since they will be able to share targets, notes, and PMs. Any information leading the wolves to their own roles will probably come after they’ve already figured it out.
What we usually worry about in these games is not exposing the town power roles for the scum to pick off, but since every one of us has some sort of power and we are likely to have more than one of most roles, it seems a little less of a worry to me. It does seem important that we figure out our roles as soon as possible, but I’m not sure that just a mass sharing of targets will help town that much. Wouldn’t it be better to selectively share information based on what we learn in the morning? For example, if I am blocked tonight, I think I would want to share that info with town, but knowing who my target was isn’t really going to help town.
Gah, I can’t quote you directly when you respond like that. That’s frustrating.
You are either overvaluing the information that the town can give scum, or you are undervaluing just how large the advantage information-wise scum have coming into the game. Either way I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. We can talk about it later if you like, because I would like to, but since it is primarily discussing an idea that I have abandoned I don’t see the point in doing so right now.
It absolutely is. If town takes down 2 or three scum, I would gladly trade a vig or cop particularly if town is gaining information that makes the cop less valuable at the same time. I would trade any single cop for any single scum in a heartbeat.
This is possibly a cultural thing, and again, I may just not understand fully what you are talking about. I don’t disagree that vanilla town should draw fire, but misleading the town is always a net negative. You go on about how there is an information disparity, great. You may not believe this, but that is actually one of my traditional soapbox topics. But you are doing totally different things with the disparity than I would. Because that disparity is one of town’s best tools for catching scum, and lying and manipulating the game makes it harder to catch scum. It doesn’t matter how much easier it is for the seer to survive if the town mislynches itself to a loss in the process.
I think that’s going to be the biggest cultural divide here actually. You seem to put a lot more value on power roles than I do.
You are wrong. You are probably town, but that doesn’t make you not wrong.
I’m sorry that I don’t want all our seers and vigs to be outed and die. If that makes me wrong, I don’t want to be right.
TexCat has a point. If we get messages based on other players’ actions, we can at least figure out a minimal count of how many of that role we have.
OTTOMH, we might get such messages from roleblockers, Docs/Angels, and perhaps watchers & trackers. Gad said there may be unusual roles as well, so ISTM we want to know soon-ish what exists.
Plus, this can feed back to the actor. For the sake of discussion, let’s assume Tex acts on me toNight. If I post toMorrow that I received a PM that I was blocked, Tex concludes e may be a roleblocker. The obfuscating factor here is whether anybody else acted on me, which would be cleared up if & when we do a mass claim of targets.
The biggest problem I see with NAF’s idea involves the rule about no two-Nights-in-a-row targets. That lets scum know who won’t be hit the next Night by the individual powers, and I see a strong possibility for this list to help scum Night action strategy disproportionately.
Hey guys, just checking in to let you know I’m feeling crazy sick today, so I’m not planning on playing tonight. I’ll see you guys tomorrow!
I did want to mention to those of you who are spoiled for my still-ongoing De’endee game: DO NOT USE examples from that game to justify votes or cases in this game. As there are several players who are still alive over there, you risk giving out spoiled information they shouldn’t be privy to. I’d appreciate it if you didn’t talk about that game at all until it concludes.
As for usefulness – in International Mafia, I had a Night action that could prevent people from leaving my half of the game (New Zealand) and traveling to the other half of the game (United Kingdom). As things played out, it wasn’t useful. But I wasn’t Vanilla Kiwi.
So yes, there’s no plain Town in this game. Usefulness depends on how the game plays out.
**NAF **brings up a good point about the value of the power roles. I used to play in a way that I hoped the power roles would save town but I’ve recently come around to the view that power roles don’t have to win the game for us nor should we rely on them to win the game. For me, I view the game discussion as the most valuable source of information, i.e., scum tells. I’m leaning more towards viewing information from power roles as icing on the proverbial scum cake. (I don’t know what a scum cake is but I wanted to say it!).
I only trust what I know and what I can glean from the discussion threads. I have a tendency to distrust pretty much any claim that I cannot confirm for myself (or was mod-confirmed). So for me, knowing anyone’s targets isn’t all that helpful because I’m not likely to believe it unless it can be confirmed by a large number of players (thereby reducing the likelihood of a scum gambit). So overall, I don’t think his idea is any better or worse than anything else town is likely to do regarding claims.
Through post #149
MykBot (2): Zeriel [21], TimeLady [24]
Giraffe (1): special ed [51]
NAF1138 (1): Dancecat [53]
Dancecat (1): Idle Thoughts [72]
Idle Thoughts (1): Krayz [86]*
*make it bold and blue next time tho
Thought I remembered somebody unvoting somebody, but I guess not.
Through post #150
MykBot (2): Zeriel [21], TimeLady [24]
Giraffe (1): special ed [51]
NAF1138 (1): Dancecat [53]
Dancecat (1): Idle Thoughts [72]
Idle Thoughts (1): Krayz [86]*
*make it bold and blue next time tho
Thought I remembered somebody unvoting somebody, but I guess not.
The way I see it Everyplayer has a night action (ie some sort of power) = No Vanilla
At this point every player has to have the mind set that they do indeed have a valuable role in this game.
While that’s true as it stands, consider it this way: Right now, town has 0 information and scum has 1 information. Naively, if everyone posts their targets truly, and say that information is worth 1 point per night, then town has 1 information and scum has 2 information. So town’s gone from “infinitely less information” to “half as much information”. After another night, then it’s 2 and 3, town closing the information gap yet again.
At some point you can make the argument that improving the ratio of information between scum and town justifying paying for that improvement by increasing scum’s absolute amount of information. Especially if the information that you provide to both sides is such that a good lynch or other town action can flip the information ratio to our side.
Figuring out when this is a wise decision is literally impossible on Day One in a closed game, but NAF’s plan isn’t ENTIRELY stupid, just a gamble right now with unknown odds–and in fairness, starting it now has the advantage of making it harder for scum to game the false information they reveal.
We have what sometimes appears to be a track record around here of this kind of thing being poorly done enough such that it makes it EASIER for the wolves to find the seers.
What about night actions that happen to you? (that’s a really clunky way of putting it but hopefully you know what I mean)
i.e. Scum presumably won’t reveal anything that happened to them (or else will lie). Should town tell all? Or is it too much of a risk of helping scum find out their roles. That’s presuming roles with effects that the person targeted finds out about of course.
for instance, if I said FRIST on my first post in this thread it would be a lie. Then someone would say ‘not the first post, lynch all liars vote: krayz’ and lolz would be had.
@ NAFToo many times I have had an epiphany “Look guys I thought of a GREAT Idea” And could not wait to present it. Upon review my GREAT idea had flaws I had not seen the first go round.
Atleast D1 will be not as flailing- we get to sort out some cultural differences ( Conversation IS Information)
Thinking out loud here
My reasoning I can either
*’act out’ at the players I find the most questionable until I think I know what I ‘do’
‘act out at’ the players I think Scum are going to attack and hope I’m not a Vig or a Roleblocker
*ask “someone” (snicker)
I’m leaning toward the first at this stage
NOT sending in a target is worse than not voting IMO ( I Don’t consider that an option) In that case I would still have performed the act I don’t know what is on a target that I don’t know who is. With NO verified results.
Zeriel, you’re not taking into account the fact that scum can coordinate their night actions way way way more easily than we can. That was their biggest advantage in the first game.
Scum got owned in the first game, eventually, but it wasn’t because we were outing our roles until far later in the game.
Someone mentioned mass claims, that works well in this format at some point.