Need help with my dog's bad behavior

We have 2 dogs, a male shepherd/lab mix we got from a shelter 9 years ago, and a female purebred shepherd we got as a puppy 8 years ago. She came from a pet store and was probably bred in a puppy mill (please don’t tell me about pet store dogs…I know). Both dogs are fixed. The female shepherd (we’ll call her Queenie to protect her anonymity) is shy and fearful of people, especially children. She’s fine with our daughter and is quite protective of her. It’s strangers she has a problem with, even strangers she sees regularly, and especially strange children.

Last night my neighbor’s 4 yr old son came running into our yard when the dogs were outside alone (we have them confined to our yard with an invisible fence) and Queenie nipped him on the butt…not hard enough to break skin, but hard enough to leave a nasty bruise and a terrified screaming child. This is the second incident with the same child in the past month. First time didn’t involve a bite because Mrs. Vet intervened, but it was a nasty snap and snarl. Our other dog (we’ll call him Rex), for what it’s worth, is very well adjusted and playful and is especially good with children.

So I have several problems. 1) I need to keep my neighbor’s children safe. This most recent problem happened because the boy came running over when no one was outside supervising the dogs. He should have known better, especially after being snapped at a few weeks ago (he has referred to “Queenie” as the “the mean one” ever since then). Nevertheless, it won’t make anyone feel any better if he gets seriously hurt even if it is his fault…the poor kid is only 4. 2) I’ve been struggling for years to deal with the root of the problem, which is that the dog is shy and fearful. We’ve gone out of our way to try to socialize her better and improve her confidence with training and activity, but nothing seems to be working. The dog doesn’t play and isn’t motivated by food. Any sudden movement by family members will cause her to yelp and cry as if she were being beaten, and being startled by a stranger will result in a fear bite if she can’t retreat. I don’t know what else to try to improve her confidence and deal with her fear. 3) The dog is ruining a close friendship with our neighbors. We’ve always been good friends with them and our children like playing together. If their kids are terrified of our dog and the parents worried about injury, it will put a major rift in our friendship. At this point, I’m not worried about them filing a complaint about the dog because we have a good enough relationship with them, but a 3rd incident may be over the limit. 4) The whole situation is really driving a major wedge between me and my wife. She’s finally starting to realize that the dog is a problem. She’s rationalized “Queenie’s” timidity for years as just a part of her personality. My reaction to this incident didn’t help and was probably the wrong thing to do. When she told me what had happened, I said that if there was one more incident, the dog had to go. She believes that this is a “my dog vs. your dog” thing. She believes that “Rex” is my dog and that “Queenie” is her dog. I don’t see it that way. We got both dogs together and they are OUR dogs. She accuses me of having a different attitude about Rex when he bit me several years ago. That was a dominance issue and it was dealt with appropriately (I put him on leash and walked him briskly to reestablish dominance and then isolated him in his crate for a while) and it has never happened again. Dominance biting is much easier to deal with than fear biting. If it had continued and if I had any fear that someone’s child was at risk of being bitten by him, my attitude would be exactly the same - he’d have to go if the problem couldn’t be solved.

So we both independently decided that we need to put a muzzle on “Queenie” when she is outside to prevent biting. Of course, we can’t even agree on that. Mrs. Vet wants to use a lightweight mesh muzzle, which looks to me as though it is intended to prevent barking, not biting. To me, it looks restrictive (although it claims to allow the dog to pant) and like it wouldn’t prevent biting. I want to get a basket muzzle - one that completely encloses the mouth without restricting it and allows the dog to pant and drink water. I initially suggested metal or PVC but she was concerned that “Queenie” would hurt herself trying to get it off. Then I suggested one of the leather muzzles that the police use on K-9 dogs. That wasn’t acceptable either, although I couldn’t get a clear reason why (at first she tried the same argument as against the metal muzzles and then decided that the leather muzzle would make Queenie look too menacing).

So anyway - I got troubles. Just writing them out probably helped a bit, but I’d really appreciate advice from anyone who has experienced this, or who has expertise in canine behavior. Marital advice would also be accepted, but I doubt it would help :slight_smile:

Are there any professional trainers in your area? You might want to ask your vet or ask around about one - unfortunately this could end up becoming a bad problem. As you have noticed, your friendship with your neighbors will most likely not survive a serious bite to their child. I don’t know enough about dogs to recommend any steps to take myself, but if the dog has already snapped at a small child twice you do really need to do something.

You’ve said your wife has resisted any ideas you have had so far - has she offered any ideas? Does she realize you could be on the recieving end of a lawsuit - especially now that you know the dog is a potential danger? She needs to understand that this isn’t a “your” dog versus “her” dog issue - this is a “we could get sued and lose everything we own” issue.

Why don’t you build a real fence or a kennel for the dogs when they are outside unsupervised?

Real fences don’t just keep the dogs in, they keep other people out. Next time it might not be the neighbor’s kid, it might be the obnoxious teenagers from down the street who want to torment the poor animals, who are stuck inside the invisible fence. Regardless of how you address the dog’s behavior issues, it sounds like an invisible fence is not the right solution for your situation.

Hi-

I agree with the previous poster- this dog should be kennelled away from small children. Honestly, it sounds like a temperament issue vs. a training issue- you will never be able to change this dogs fearfulness. It sounds like you did everything right in raising/socializing her- sometimes its just not enough. The muzzle idea is not too bad- but what if she gets it off? I just think the kids and the dog would be safer with confinement instead of muzzling her (if you do get a muzzle- go for the basket one- the mesh muzzles are fine short term but their presence alone can cause anxiety/stress where the basket muzzles are not as restricting. Still- she’s presumably a big dog- so it may not matter next time she decides to chase a child- she could knock the child down and injure them as well as bite.
I am not a professional dog trainer- but train working border collies (a breed with similar fear issues at time). I have dogs that I trust 100% around kids but also a couple that must be managed around strangers or children- its not a training issue to me because I can’t “make them” not be afraid. I can encourage them to be friendly (by treats mostly) but even that doesn’t help when they are not food motivated. My two anxious dogs are not good with “public” situations or company- but if there are sheep around they miraculously become friendly and well socialized- go figure LOL. In those trickier situations, all I can do is control their behavior and keep them away from the situations where a potential bite could happen.

I second the idea of a REAL fence. Chain link, at least 6 feet tall. I would fence the back yard and leave the front unfenced. That way you won’t have to worry as much about the neighbor kids teasing your dogs.

Good luck. I have an idea what your’e going through as I have 2 pit bulls, one well-socialized male and an untrained, timid “throw away” female. Fortunately she just piddles when I pet her and doesn’t snap at anyone.

Thanks for the replies -

A real fence is something that I have considered, but it’s probably the most difficult of all possible solutions for more than just financial reasons. In my town, you need a building permit to put up a fence, so the whole process takes about 6-8 months. I also think that a full fence enclosure would not be a popular choice in the neighborhood. If one of the neighbors suggests it, we’ll consider it though. I am giving consideration to a fenced in run/kennel. It seems the most feasible containment/exclusion solution. There are logistical problems that I would have to solve for Mrs Vet though (such as getting the dog from the house to the kennel in the snow).

The most frustrating thing about the whole situation is that I know that this isn’t a fixable behavior issue. You can reinforce dominance over an aggressive dog, but you can’t make a dog not be afraid. Add that to the fact that I seem unable to convince my wife what the potential implications of this problem are. Snakescatlady it’s even more dire than just a “we’ll get sued and be ruined” situation. In New Jersey, we could go to jail and face criminal charges just for what has occurred already. Thankfully, we have a good relationship with these neighbors - we could be ruined already.

Hopefully, I can find some solution for this that doesn’t involve jail, divorce or funerals.

By that I mean fence the back yard off from the front yard, about halfway through the house. That way the dogs will be in a completely enclosed space far enough from the sidewalk that they can’t bother or be bothered by kids.

Have you considered euthanasia? It is what I mention first when asked about situations such as the one you are describing. Dogs that bite people often show escalation. How would you feel if the 4 year old is killed or disfigured?

As far as muzzles are concerned, the ones that you are describing are not intended to be used without immediate supervision. If the dog vomits, it will asphyxiate. Try looking at basket muzzles. Or, preferably, euthanasia.

A four year old child? If things do escalate, my (free) legal advice would be to not use this as your defense strategy.

That was my solution, once, with a timid dog that became aggressive with escalating behavior. I didn’t think it was worth any risk.

Have I considered it? Read my OP again. What I said was: “If there is one more incident, the dog has to go”. What I wanted to say, but didn’t have the intestinal fortitude, was: “The dog has to go.” This is precisely what created the friction at home. Of course I considered it. Suggesting it outright would likely lead to my divorce.

How would I feel? About a million times worse than I do right now (which is pretty frigging awful). If I were single and I were the sole decisionmaker, the dog would be at a shelter right now waiting to be adopted by someone who could deal with her problems or be euthanized.

As for the muzzles - I agree with you totally…I just told the Mrs. to get a recommendation from our vet and that I would go along with anything he recommends - I just hope she does.

How 'bout you don’t leave the dog outside unsupervised? Or is that too difficult a concept?

Why “one more incident”? What if that “one more incident” is a fatality or serious disfiguring wound?

Please do not turn the dog over to a shelter. There are healthy, friendly dogs being euthanized because there are not enough homes. Why should someone else assume your headache?

Unless you have extensive experience in animal behaviour and training, it seldom is worth the risk. IMHO.

It could be possible that this is an organic problem, especially if you’ve been so careful with the dog’s socialization.

My olderst dog, Bean, has anxiety issues, which were getting more severe as she got older. I talked to my vet, and she put her on "doggy Zoloft. " (I think it’s called Clomipramine.) The change in my dog was dramatic. She became much more calm and friendly. She got back her puppyish playfulness and doesnt’s panic when she hears the wind blow any more.

It took several different prescriptions before we found the right one for her, but it was worth it. She’s a different dog now.

How often is your dog outside? Is it possible that you could go out with her when it’s time to go to the bathroom? She might feel more secure if you’re around.

Not for me it isn’t, but unfortunately I’m not the only responsible adult. Or maybe I am, depending on how you define responsible.

Those very words came out of my mouth not an hour ago. Did not my previous posts not make clear that the dog is not the only problem here?

Please don’t think I’m suggesting that the answer to the problem is to pop on down to the local animal shelter to foist my problem onto some unwitting other person. There are rescue organizations which deal primarily with problem animals and only allow an animal out for adoption after an extensive selection process to ensure that the adopter is fully aware of and fully capable of dealing with the animal’s problem. Most of these animals wind up being put down too, because there are too few people in the world with the time, resources and expertise to give them the attention they need - that’s how they wind up there in the first place. I simply think that making the determination that an animal needs to be put down is a decision that should be made by someone far more qualified than I.

Either way, it now seems irrelevant. After this evening’s “discussion” I no longer have any doubt that this problem will end up in court eventually - whether because we are being charged/sued or because we are getting divorced. I have no way of knowing which will happen first. Either way, there is no happy ending in this story.

I think you are. Why does she want to keep this dog, but leave it outside instead of having it inside where it can interact with her?

I am so sorry your wife is being so unreasonable. I love dogs, but I truly feel there is just no room in this world for dangerous animals when hundreds (thousands?) of wonderful, gentle pets die every day in shelters. Would your wife possibly consider getting a new dog that would otherwise be killed that does not have these problems? Probably not, but worth a shot.

When you suggest to your wife that a child may be mutilated or killed by this animal, what does she say? Does she deny the possibility or does she just not care? This dog is 8 years old, nearing the end of her life already. This is going to sound terrible and everyone is going to hate me, but can you find a friend who is willing to “give her a home” for a few weeks until “something” (hit by a car, sudden liver failure, etc) happens? Obviously this is horrible and decietful and suggests that your marriage has more wrong with it than just this issue, but a lot is at stake here. I think the very least you can do is insist that the dog not be in the yard unsupervised. Ever. I really can’t see how your wife could argue with that, and if she does she is a little crazy. Sorry. Good luck.