When a guy pitches a one hit shutout, it gets alot of publicity within the baseball community- a little bit less publicity then a no-hitter would have. See, because the guy gave up no hits, which is less than one. If you were watching Baseball Tonight on a night when, say, Millwood had a no-hitter and Curt Schilling had a two-hit, 13 K, no BB shutout, they’d both be made a big deal out of. I think the whole “way too much publicity” thing occurs outside of the baseball world- on local news radio or something. That’s just because the non-baseball public cares about the extremity of a NO-hitter more than they do about whether or not Millwood almost gave up that single up the middle in the fifth. Zero hits is a notable extreme that people, baseball fan or not, can understand and latch onto. Nobody who actually follows and understands the game would make that much more out of Millwood’s game than they would have out of one of your Koufax gems.
I don’t understand what you mean by the end result difference between a BB and a single. In both cases the batter WON (unless it is intentional to set up a play, or it’s Barry Bonds who would just hit it out anyway) and is now standing on first base and the pitcher has to worry about him AND the batter. What is the end result difference? I really don’t understand your point.
A walk is a single? What bizarro world are you on, djf750? Let’s clarify this:
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A walk is where before 3 strikes to a batter are accumulated, same batter in one plate appearance gets 4 balls.
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A single is where the batter, before accumulating 3 strikes or 4 balls, hits the baseball safely such that he is able to reach first base without being called out.
So in order to get a walk a batter must not hit the ball into fair play, and in order to hit safely 4 balls cannot accumulate. Looks like they aren’t the same thing.
“PS Again, a walk is a single. Man on base.”
You cannot use the end “man on base” to equate a walk and a single, else you would also have to equate these other things:
- third strike dropped
- Fan interference
- Catcher interference
- Ball lodged in catcher’s gear
- hit batsman
Hell, using your logic two doubles equal a home run. But a run scores on the latter and not necessarily on the former (runner stranded each time).
Hit != walk.
BINGO!
Robgruver, Kerry Wood is pitching pretty damn well since his surgery, although he’s a little less nasty since he can’t throw that power slider anymore. Looky here.
djf750- a walk doesn’t give a runner on second a chance to score, it doesn’t score a runner from third unless the bases are loaded, it can’t be stretched into a double, and it doesn’t put pressure on the defense to make a play.
- What happens to a batter’s batting average/slugging when he gets a hit?
- What happens when he gets a BB?
- What happens to a pitcher’s statistics when he gives up a hit?
- What happens when he gives a walk?
- What happens to the opposing team’s confidence when their teammate gets a hit vs. a walk?
- Is there the possibility of a fielding error when a batter receives a walk?
- Can a runner on 2nd score easily when a walk is issued? How about 3rd base?
- Get my drift?
Oh my God, I didn’t mean it literally. We are talking about no hitters and strong pitching performances. Unless you are walking a guy intentionally, the goal is to get him out. If the pitcher doesn’t throw strikes, for whatever reason, THE BATTER WINS and goes to first base JUST AS IF HE HIT A LINE DRIVE TO CENTER. He is now standing on the base. He can now steal. The pitcher has to pitch differently (from a stretch).
Of course there is a difference (it is not even an official at bat) . My point is the batter won. The pitcher lost. When a pitcher gets all batters out ( a perfect game) , that is a real accomplishment.
We are way off the point I was trying to make. A no hitter is interesting because they are so rare. But to me if a pitcher walks one batter and allows no hits, it is like a one hitter. That hitter got on base, just as if he hit a single and is now a threat.
Still very good, but not like a perfect game. In a perfect game, the pitcher doesn’t even have to pitch from a stretch! He challenged and retired every batter. He didn’t get cute and walk anyone.
MILLWOOD still pitched a dominant game, but he didn’t get THREE guys out.
Of course a perfect game is more dominating than a run of the mill no hitter that has walks or HBPs in it.
But it’s still quite an accomplishment. Even teams with very high walk totals (like Oakland) want to get hits.
Baseball has so many events that are pure chance. A pitcher go out and give up 27 straight line drives all hit directly at infielders. This does not imply that he was pitching well, but rather that he got lucky.
And some baseball researchers have started to study how well a pitcher does on balls in play, i.e., how well do batters hit a pitcher on plays that aren’t strikeouts, walks, HBPs, or over-the-fence home runs.
Initial studies seem to indicate that even the best pitchers see their rate of batters reaching base on balls in play to vary widely between seasons.
Boy, that was a pain, djf. But I think I have it … According to the recap, the run was scored by Felix Mantilla, who reached base on an error. That run should have been scored as unearned, not earned … To think that Haddix was spared two earned runs by Aaron’s and Adcock’s baserunning screwup. Weird game.
Worse than that. He’s still with the Cubs. 
Seriously, though, as Jimmy Chitwood says, he’s actually doing reasonably well so far this season.
Exactly. Otherwise, they would call no-hitters “perfect games”.
Has a pitcher pitched more of a dominant game if someone got on by error, or a dropped third strike? What if that runner stole a base, putting him on second? Does a single=walk in this instance, where on a single that runner maybe scores?
No, it doesn’t. And it perfectly illustrates exactly why a single != a walk, and why a no-hitter (with 3 walks) is, on average, better than a 1-hitter (no walks).
djf, obviously a perfect game is more of an achievement than a no-hitter. Nobody would disagree with that. That’s not the same as your loopy comment that a no-hitter is bullshit. Few people have ever done it. And let’s not forget he threw it against a very good offense. Barry Bonds wasn’t even the recipient of one of those walks.
The fielders ALWAYS get credit in a no-hitter. They get less credit than the pitcher individually, but that only makes sense, since none of them does as much. None of them is pitching. It sounds like you think pitchers shouldn’t be awarded any credit for an out unless it’s a strikeout.
Well, that’s how you see it. The runner isn’t much of a threat when the pitcher doesn’t allow any hits - barring errors, he has to allow four walks for that run to score. Walks and hits aren’t the same thing, and there’s a reason. There’s a lot of luck and blurry distinctions in baseball, but that’s the way it is. Unless you want to make different categories for solid hits (credit the batter), luck/bloop hits (credit nobody), earned walks (batter earns it), bad walks (pitcher is wild, batter just stands there), intentional walks (blame it on the manager, I guess), and break everything up into super-tiny distinct categories, you just have to accept that this stuff happens. You can walk nobody, not give up a single solid hit, and lose. Baseball is all about those small twists that mean a lot.
If you want to argue that facing the minimum is harder, fine. Nobody will agree, but at least that’s a position. Right now it comes across like you have something petty in for Kevin Millwood. Like anybody here could come even close to throwing a no-hitter?
Yeah thats it. That fucking Millwood kid used to be my paperboy and the little prick would throw the G. D. paper in the bushes every single day.
And I know he had a good arm, he would just do it to piss me off.
Sorry SC, I was talking about how they have BREWERS instead of BRAVES. They were the Braves back then.
Yes, that was a wierd game. Can you imagine 12 perfect innings? Against a team with Aaron in the lineup?
And a walk doesnt equal a single in at bats or batting average or fielding percentage or how the box score reads.
I was talking about it in relation to a pitcher pitching a no hitter. The pitcher is obviously pitching carefully to some batters and not challenging them completely, or his control isn’t that good but he is throwing hard.
That is my point. Whenever I hear “no hitter” I think “how many did he walk?” It is usually 3 or more. It is still a well pitched game, but it gets too much credit. Uh oh, Here we are again.
If I hear “perfect game” I am very very impressed. I watch Sports Center twice and then read about it the next day.
In fact if I hear 2 hit COMPLETE GAME shutout with NO WALKS, I am very impressed.
I should have said overrated instead of bullshit.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Munch *
[BYou can bitch all you want about how pitchers nowadays aren’t what they used to be, but the fact remains that the rules have remained the same since that time. But if you do make that argument, please be advised that the argument of “hitters back then weren’t what they are now” will be countered, and this whole mess will be the biggest clusterfuck of a thread!**/QUOTE]
Actually the rules have changed, and the changes hurt the pitcher and the changes have a direct link to Bob Gibson’s dominance in the 1968 season. After the 1968 season the height of the pitchers mound was lowered, which has ended up giving an advantage to the hitter. Plus the baseball, while not being juiced has been changed in some manner so that it travels farther.
Which is still brought up from time to time, eventhough it wasn’t a no-hitter.
Cyberhwk
[sup]Who’s seen a perfect game, if only in Single-A ball.[/sup]
Question: If noone got a hit but one of the walked players scored a run would it still be a no-hitter?
Maybe. Matt Young of the Red Sox lost a no hitter 2-1 (I think that was the score) in about 1990 or so. Unfortunately for him, it was a road game, so he only had to pitch 8 innings, as the home team was winning going into the bottom of the 9th. He gets a mention in the HOF No-Hitter exhibit, but it is not officially counted as a no hitter. If he had gotten to pitch the 9th, though, it would be a no hitter officially.