No Wonder "It's Taking Longer Than We Thought"

The BBQ Pit
41

Scylla:

I understand your point, and it is a valid one. But I honestly have nothing to debate with respect to the existence of my God. If I were so unsure of His existence that I thought it merited debate, why … oh, the thought of that is just too funny! Suffice it to say that it would be a puny faith.

And I am able to discern a difference between the respectful atheist who says, “I don’t worship your God,” and the disrespectful one who says, “You are crazy to believe in your God (because He does not exist).”

Am I drawing a distinction without a difference, d’ya think?

42

Lib, in your world-view God exists, and I, for various reasons, do not believe He exists. I accept your right to believe and say that God exists and I just do not see it. In my world-view, God does not exist, and you, for various reasons, do not believe He does not exist. Will you accept my right to believe and say that God (almost certainly) does not exist and you just do not see it?

I believe you when you say you love God. I believe you have your reasons to believe He exists. I do not believe He actually exists, although, in a metaphorical way, He exists to you. I can believe you love your mother without having to believe she exists in actuality. Your love is your own, and I can take your statement, compare it to your actions, and judge that you do in fact love. I can believe God–and your mother–live in your head and heart; but must I not allow myself to say that they do not exist outside of there, if I in fact think they do not?

43

The concepts of God and mommy and nothing alike, Lib. It seems to me that by saying my Father and my own God you are clearly distinguishing your God from the traditional Hebrew/Christian/Moslem G-d and claiming it is you who have a special relationship with Him. Which sounds an awful lot like what Jesus was doing when he claimed to be so close to God he was in fact his Son. No one understood or believed him either. Folks insulted his belief, too.

How does it feel to be so special?

Hell is Other People.

44

Gaudere:

In thinking it over, no, I guess I don’t mind that at all, because, in a profound way, He really does not exist for the unbeliever after all. In fact, you are, forgive me, in hell, because hell is merely separation from Him.

Okay, Gaudere. I’ll try to maintain the right attitude about it. It would be unbelievably presumptuous of me to ask you to say anything other than what you believe. It is amazing how much you are teaching me.

Of course, Sake could tone it down a bit. :wink: Just kidding Sake. Rail on.

45

andros said:

…who told you?

Rufus:

Did you read the “?'s for Fundies” GD thread recently? LOL, your above post was remarkably similar (albeit somewhat abbreviated).

So, just to throw things off,

“Ah, and isn’t it a sight to see the elk gather around for a drink at the water hole. And you should see them run when they find out it’s a water hole–what they’re looking for is an elk-ahol!”

Insanity destroys logic, but not wit. Nathaniel Emmons

If we are out of our mind, it is for the Lord; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 2Cor.5:13

46

Really? Woo-hoo! Hell rules! Man, I guess I should thank those fundies for telling me I’m going to hell when I die; here I thought they were saying I was going to burn in eternal pain, but it turns out I get to have a great life! Thank God I’m an atheist! <img src=“http://www.elnet.com/~sburch/sjbgrin.gif” height=15 width=15> <img src=“http://www.elnet.com/~sburch/sjbgrin.gif” height=15 width=15>
<img src=“http://www.elnet.com/~sburch/sjbgrin.gif” height=15 width=15>
<img src=“http://www.elnet.com/~sburch/sjbgrin.gif” height=15 width=15>

47

And monkeys might well fly out of my ass. :rolleyes:

48

Gaudere:

As I understand His teachings, hell, like heaven, is not a place that is here or is there, but hell, like heaven, is within us.

I suppose the Tent Theory applies here.

49

What’s the tent theory? And yes, I am aware of the “heaven or hell” is inside us theory. My statement still stands–hell is pretty kickin’, then. I certainly don’t seem any unhappier than theists are, so if there is a difference between heaven and hell, it must be pretty darn ineffable.

50

I don’t really see any relevant difference. Again, sorry.
There are some things that I would not share on this board because they are nobody’s business, and because I hold them so sacred I could not rationally stand to see them attacked.

Unfortunately, it seems that some of your sacred beliefs are in just that position right now.

They may even be in conflict with personal or sacred beliefs of others.

Somehow they got onto this board, and became valid subjects for criticism because of that.

The only way they could have got there is if you put them there.

I’m reminded of the scene in Catch 22 where Yossarian rails against God. His girlfriend, an atheist hears this and gets very upset.

She cries “No stop it, The God I don’t believe in is kind and compassionate and wise.”

Do you see my point?

Nobody here is recquired to pay lip service to someone else’s beliefs. To so insist is coercive, which you hate.

Catch 22

In fact some atheists find the insistence on divine existence very offensive to their personal belief systems. Your request that they “honor your Father” can be construed as a personal attack.

I know that you are sincere, and forthright in your beliefs. I know that that sincerity and honesty has given you the respect and friendship of many people on this board in spite of the fact that some radically disagree with your point of view.

It has also caused some people a lot frustration as they try to reconcile the two.

If you could be tolerant of them as they do this, it might be helpful to them and you.

Often wrong… NEVER in doubt

51

Gaudere, all I can offer in response to that is Kris Kristofferson’s comment:

You have a happy life, and nobody wishes you different. On our worldview, you could have an even happier one, and one that doesn’t end with the death of your body, which will come sometime in the next hundred years or so. To use Lib’s metaphor, which does work, it’s like love. A commitment that is scary and tinged with all kinds of doubt, but once you’ve been there, you know that there’s nothing like it, and would never willingly go back. {/spastic metaphor]

Andros:

We’ll be watching.

BTW, does this board have some sort of anal fixation? First Satan, then Lib., then Newton’s Apple, now Andros. It’s beginning to worry me! :o

52

Lots of things would make me happier to believe, Poly. Who wouldn’t want a little more life? But not believeing in something I can’t find enough reason to believe in is not hell–it’s living my life to the best of my ability. (And note how Lib says I am in hell, and I remain unoffended; I accept his right to his worldview, so long as he is reasonably polite about it… :wink: )

53

I was just sitting here on my ass, when I read that andros feels that the likelihood of my toning down my posts is on par with the likelihood that simians will crawl out of his posterior, rip through his silk “Marmaduke” panties and thick green corduroy pants and take to the sky.

That made me laugh and scratch my butt.

Hell is Other People.

54

Gaudere:

That’s an understatement. :slight_smile:

The Tent Theory is based on a thought experiment. A man lives his whole life in a tent. He lives there willingly because he is content to live there. He has vague indications that something is going on outside. He even hears the voices of people yelling through his tent, “Hey, we’re all out here. Why don’t you come out of that tent?”

But as he sees it, he is in his world and they are in theirs. He doesn’t see these things they claim exist. He has no need to go outside because he is happy where he is.

But the twist to it, and the key thing, is this: because he is content, he fears that anything outside would upset his contentment. “I’m happy now, so why do I need anything from out there?”

If he walked outside, he would see the world in a whole new way. It would be a sudden thing. As he stepped through the flap, there would be instant new knowledge, conception, and perception. He would likely have an epiphanic fit.

But because he doesn’t know there is anything better, he is quite happy with what he has. He doesn’t know about the things outside his tent and is not curious about them. Why not? Well, because he’s content. In his tent.

It is my belief that God allows you your choices, and you have chosen (at least for now) what makes you happy. Both the choice and the concequence are yours. You will not ever know his ineffible and eternal love, but then you aren’t curious about that because you are content. In your tent.

“They have their reward already.” — Jesus

55

That sounds like platonic plagiarism.

Hell is Other People.

56

For me, reality doesn’t care whether you believe in it or not. If you tell me the only way I can see the stuff outside the tent is to believe that there is something outside, the fact that something is actually outside is a little suspect. Delusions make you see the world in a whole new way, too (not implying your belief is a delusion, just a analogy). Anyhow, we’ve been over this before. I think it is an undiscovered law of evolution that, given enough time, all threads will evolve into a either a religious debate or a flamewar (sometimes both!).

57

Could be a big hungry bear outside that tent too!

When I camp, and I here noises outside, I stay IN the tent.

Often wrong… NEVER in doubt

58

Gaudere:

I couldn’t agree more. Is it any wonder that I hold you in such high esteem?

Belief is the exit for the tent that a mind is in.

59

Scylla…you will only know the bear is there if you let him into your heart and believe he exists… (Try that on your next camping trip!) ::d&r::

60

I should have said that was my opinion. Sorry.