I started doing this, in case it would help you, but the post just ends up sounding negative and argumentative, so I don’t want to post it. It did occur to me while I was writing that you are basically witnessing, so your threads might do better in Great Debates, which is more about discussion and less about socialising.
Did you read your link?
(I’ll summarize for those who didn’t: “Intent” is bullshit!! The only thing that matters is my subjective experience of what you say!!!~!~!eleventy).
Oh, yeah - got that very treatment at work about a month ago - client on the worksite didn’t want me lifting a saw weighing about 20 pounds because it was too heavy for a girl. The rest of the guys on the work crew started laughing, then tell the client to turn around. There I am, delicate little flower of femininity, carrying an 80 pound bag of cement.
One of my biggest obstacles as a woman in construction aren’t the other tradesmen - they’re used to sizing up a new co-worker quickly and as long as I’m obviously doing what I am capable of they don’t seem to have an issue with me. It’s the damn clients, especially the really old guys who just aren’t as physically strong as they used to be who have to cope with the notion that yes, there is a female on the jobsite who is capable of carrying more weight than they are. They. Just. Don’t. Believe. It. I’m sorry, I do this work 30 to 40 (and sometimes more) hours a week. It’s like lifting weights at the gym, except with a lot more dirt, opportunities for injury, and not nearly as much fun. You’re a retired geezer who mostly sits around and watches TV all day. Sorry, if you don’t use those muscles you lose 'em. That, and after a certain point age will drag you down no matter how hard you exercise.
That, and with a disabled spouse who has lost a lot of the use of his left arm guess who gets to do all the heavy lifting around our household? (I do wish to emphasize that the husband does do quite a few things, those which he is capable of doing).
Anyhow, I don’t mind being treated like a “lady” when I’m dressed to the nines and prettied up. But when I’m in t-shirt, flannels, jeans, and workboots with a toolbelt strapped around my waist please do NOT insult my competence by contracting whatever assignment the site boss just gave me. We’ve worked together for years, he knows very well what I am and am not capable of, including how much weight I can lift and how often, and do NOT take work away from me! When I’m dressed as one of the work crew please, PLEASE treat me like “one of the guys”.
(To be fair, most clients do - it makes the ones that don’t just that much more annoying)
And I think, to some extent, that’s part of the problem Jamie has here - at the gym, working out, using the machines, the weights, the jaccuzzi and showers and locker rooms he wants to be treated (as much as possible) just like one of the other guys. Sure, no one is going to forget the wheelchair. They’re sort of obvious and even a blind guy could figure out he’s rolling instead of walking by the sound. But, aside from concessions that MUST be made, Jamie really does want equal treatment. And why shouldn’t he get that?
It’s been a long time since I worked out at a gym, but my recollection was that for the most part people will let a hand to spot or whatever when you ask, folks hold the door for each when it makes sense, and if someone needs some extra room to get by in a tight spot in the locker room folks shuffle around. But no one makes a big deal of it, or gives thumbs up when someone gets through a door or into a jacuzzi on their own. That’s the normal part of things. That’s not what Jamie is getting all the time, though.
And telling him to just deal with it, he’s an unusual sight, is rather like telling someone black they just have to deal with racial bigotry because, you know, they’re a visible minority. No, it’s not acceptable. Sure, in many instances the expedient response is to pretend to ignore the crap but later on, yes, the person that deal with the prejudice has every right to be upset over it, rail about, and otherwise express their frustration that the world doesn’t treat them as an ordinary human being.
Again, Jamie’s writing does make him sound like Angry Wheelchair Man, but that’s what almost all his complaints boil down to: as much as possible, treat him as a normal person. The ONLY concession should be those things that must be done to accommodate his inoperative legs.
Let’s review:
Airplane Aisle Chair - he doesn’t object to the concept of a narrow, aisle-fitting wheelchair, what he objects to is that *HE doesn’t NEED to be strapped in or pushed down the aisle. He needs the chair to move down the aisle, he doesn’t NEED the straps and the pushing (well, OK, he can also butt-scoot down the aisle, but apparently that’s not the optimum choice here). It’s the additional stuff that he does not NEED that he objects to.
Handicap accessible bathroom stall - this really boils down to he doesn’t want to wait in a room full of empty stalls he can’t use while able-bodied person hogs the one stall he can actually use. If the entire bathroom is filled up and the line goes around the block, OK, he can see waiting because everyone else is waiting, too, it’s when a little more courtesy - not using the big stall unless you NEED it - could eliminate the waiting problem that he gets steamed.
Gym Jacuzzi - he feels getting in and out of it by himself should be no more surprising, and no more deserving of comment (good or bad) than anyone else doing the same. And folks, if you haven’t seen a picture of Mr. McGarry you should (I believe at least one threat had a link) because it’s very obvious just by looking at him that there is nothing wrong with his upper body and he has considerably stronger than average arms. We’re not talking about some frail, skinny dude of questionable physical resilience, we’re talking about a guy who looks like he could do bicep curls using me instead of an iron weight. The only reason someone is going to look at Jamie and think he can’t manage his own bodyweight getting into or out of something is because they see the wheelchair and nothing but the 'chair, and are prejudiced enough to assume that, visual evidence to the contrary, Jamie must needs be a frail, physically weak person.
Unfortunately, Jamie IS abrasive (sorry, dude, but when this many people are saying “you have a point but you’re being a jerk in how you make it” you should do some serious self-reflecting) and that tends to obscure his valid complaints. Of course, part of the problem is the meme that the disabled should be self-effacing and profoundly grateful for any and all help forced on them, even when the “help” may actually be the opposite. It’s like when a man expresses his opinion in strong terms he’s “assertive” but if a woman does it in the same terms she’s a “bitch”, and if a black person does it then he/she is “uppity”. If Jamie were able-bodied he’d probably still be as abrasive, but it wouldn’t be seen as negatively because abrasiveness is not automatically judged a bad quality in a young, male, able-bodied athlete.
Is there anything that you don’t get butthurt about? I’m one of the people that you would be contemptuous at, either quietly or blatantly depending on your mood on that particular day apparently.
Maybe I’m not sensitive enough but I’ll help a handicapped person with a door without being asked and usually offer my assistance if I’m feeling that they might need help with something even if they don’t.
I don’t have time to play mind games or worry about being insensitive, I’m just trying to be a nice person. If this makes me a social clod, then so be it.
And count me as another one who is growing weary over this issue and with you.
But fear not! This will be my last reply to you unless maybe it’s a completely different subject.
Only someone who believes they themselves have never innocently offended another, with word or action, could be this hypersensitive and judgmental.
You’re coming off as part martyr and part drama queen. Certainly there is offense to be taken at every turn if one is determined. Whether, black, female, disabled, poor, blond, etc, etc.
Most people tire of it eventually and recognize that humans are flawed beings and sometimes they are a little clueless. There is not a person alive who has not had to tolerate ‘help’ they don’t need, didn’t ask for, find condescending, and is actually decidedly unhelpful. Welcome to the human race.
The man meant no offensive, and was trying to help, you admit as much.
Get over yourself already.
Well, nobody means to be condescending. But it was like, “oh hey, the guy in the wheelchair can actually DO things! Wow!” And the whole “Champ” crap makes him sound especially obnoxious.
That being said, there’s nothing wrong with a person who sincerely offers help WITHOUT being patronizing. “Hey, do you need any help?” If said person says, “No, thank you,” I don’t push the issue. (Well, unless someone falls or something, but I’d do that for anyone, disabled or not.)
And I find it interesting that the OP says that the guy’s intention doesn’t matter – it’s the result. Well, it may not be the intention of jamie to come off as “Ultra-Bitter Disabled Man”, but that’s the result. I’m not saying he needs to “get over it”, so much as he needs to chill. No one’s saying he needs to be a saint. But it’s not either totally bitter or saintly and accepting. Hello, excluded middle people?
(And I’m another that opens doors for everyone)
ETA: Broomstick, not to rehash the chair on the plane, but it was explained that it wasn’t just for the person IN the chair, but because of safety issues for EVERYONE, and liability issues. (Turbulence, etc).
Yes, I’m aware of that - but I gather Jamie may not have been prior to the discussion that ensued. I also sense he’s still pissy about the safety reasons, but hey, I’ve been known to be angry at the universe for various things at times, too.
My God, you’ve virtually said what I’ve been saying better than I’ve been saying it myself. So succinct. The ONLY thing I would add or change is the following: “and no more deserving of comment (good or bad) than anyone else doing the same.” This is your comment regarding anyone commenting on me getting in or out of the jaccuzi. I DON’T feel this way. I can totally understand someone feeling that I am deserving of a comment (a positive comment) regarding my ability in these types of situations. It should be a comment from one respectful adult to another, however. THAT is my issue. And the “magnitude” of the comments should also be in relation to the actual action I am performing. It’s not like I am dancing with Barishnikov before I dive into the jacuzzi while being a paraplegic. No, I am getting into a fucking jacuzzi. Not a magnificent feat under any circumstances. Impressive? Maybe. Worthy of a respectful compliment? Perhaps. Just keep it in perspective and keep it respectful. The “compliment” in the OP was not respectful.
**jamiemcgarry**, I think the problem is you're coming into a forum of people who *haven't* offended you based on your disability, and insisting on educating us on how not to offend you. You realize that there is a significant number of posters here with disabilties or with people close to them with disabilities. Lord knows the ADA would not have been enacted without activists demanding rights. But trying to effect a change here, where no one has discriminated against you, is pointless. It makes it seem like all you want to do is gripe, and I do not believe that that is the case. Rather than preaching to the choir, you are accusing the choir. Where should you be taking your agenda? I don't see a whole lot of options other than the person who actually is doing the offending. (And I suspect that the man in the jacuzzi, while possibly well-meaning, is probably a condescending jerk to other people in his life as well, not only the disabled. He needed educating.)
We all know that people can be condescending jerks to the disabled. Bringing up instances from your past where it has happened and posting about it here as though we had doubts about that really makes us wonder why you are choosing to educate us instead of the people who have the problem. You’re accusing us of discriminating against you by proxy. It’s not like you’re coming in and saying, “Oh, I was sooo mad today when such-and-such happened!” Instead you’re saying, “Here’s another thing that pissed me off 5 years ago, and don’t let it happen again!”
Not true- there are many people who actually are condescending, who think they are superior and better and have no trouble letting it show.
I guess what it boils down to- with respect to the larger issue- is “Yes, people are stupid sometimes”. I’m just not sure what more needs to be said. Now what would be interesting would be a real dialog- a real give and take where able-bodied and handicapped learn from each others experiences in this arena. Reading about Jamie’s experiences would be very powerful and getting to explain what it’s like to be the able-bodied person in the scenario could be powerful as well. As it is, I feel like the OP believes all the teaching should go in one direction.
Which is a shame. Blinkies’ “Ask the person with locked in syndrome” was one of the most interesting and informative threads I’ve read on the boards. I would love if Jamie would do a “Ask the paraplegic bodybuilder” thread- learning about that is not a chance you get everyday!
ETA: And with respect to the “angry, chip on your shoulder” comments- this has come up by a variety of people in different threads. Maybe, just maybe, you are angrier than you admit or at least you are coming off in a way you don’t intend. It’s not a conspiracy to minimize you- folks are coming to that opinion independently and repeatedly. Could there be something there worth examining?
And I will admit it, yes I can and have been abrasive. But I have always been an abrasive asshole, well before any wheelchair. It’s one of my shortcomings/traits as a human being and I will continue to work to improve it probably my entire life. That shouldn’t detract from the issues I bring to the table. The issues concerning the quality-of-life of those living with disabilities are genuine, real issues that deserve more attention that they receive. THAT is why I share my stories, not to invoke sympathy or anger at the stupidity of others; to try to open people’s eyes to the true conditions disabled people exist in living in this world. HOW and WHY each disabled person reacts and chooses to live in this world the way they do is a different story but certain realities DO exist.
Frankly, it’s a bit patronizing for you to think we might not already know a lot of this. I work with ADA issues daily in my classroom. Disabled Vets, learning disabilities, TBI- I’ve taught someone struggling with it. And my experiences are limited compared to many here! You can share your experiences with sounding like you are lecturing everyone. I think most people get it- maybe not every detail- but the gist. Help us see your life, and we can come to the conclusions on our own, or ask questions to learn.
Many of the replies in various threads have told me that many here need educating as well. This isn’t about just me.
And what do hope to get from these interactions? Just educate everyone else? Or is there insight you can gain from this dialog? Truly asking- no snark!
Judging from the reaction, which ranges from “you’re blowing it all out of proportion” all the way to “Actually, I deny that ever happened to you,” I’d say your views on the need for education here are a bit rosy.
Well, I would tell someone who’s black and keeps posting about how prejudiced people are that they are probably correct, but they DO have to find a way to “deal with it.” Going ballistic isn’t going to fix the problem, but rather make it worse (potentially). When you are a member of a minority group, your skin quickly thickens. You develop a self-deprecating sense of humor. You learn to inwardly roll your eyes and vent when you go home, or in the Pit. What you don’t do, if you want to succeed in life, is let the anger spill out. Because then you become Angry Black Woman or Angry Black Guy.
I certainly wouldn’t create back-to-back threads about various racial incidents and always expect everyone to sympathize with me, or to even understand. And I wouldn’t actively try to put myself in the role of “teacher,” although I have found myself in that situation sometimes. Some people would sympathize with me, and then some people would just think I had a chip on my shoulder and that I need to quit whining. Fair or unfair, that’s just ANOTHER tax that you have to pay when you are a member of a stigmitized minority group. You can’t complain too much…not to a larger audience. Because you come across as militant.
Take the women Dopers on this board. You rarely see us posting about the various slights that we encounter every day (or whatever). I think we know good and well why we don’t talk about it here. Because we’d either be preaching to the choir or we’d come across as whiny-crybabies to the unsympathetic. The middle ground really doesn’t exist, I don’t think. So what do we do? We do like you do, with your 80-lb touting self. We “deal” with it. Somehow. We inform the people around us when they’ve said or done something inappropriate, but we don’t create public service announcements that trumpet how evil and hateful the world is. That just makes people feel uncomfortable and defensive.
Mr. McGarry, I’ve lived with a disabled man for 22 years and counting. He has lived with his disability for over 50 years. Between the two of us we’ve had a lot of experience, a lot of discussions, and a lot of years to think about these things. What you are talking about is not news to me.
My personal opinion is that you do need to work on how you present yourself. You aren’t coming across to others as you seem to think you do, and it’s hindering communication. I don’t have any suggestions in that regard at the moment, but do think it over.
Then don’t be surprised when people are abrasive assholes back to you. If you come in ‘with guns blazing’, as you said, you should expect people to shoot back.
Good luck.
But it does. Many of us have agreed with you on several points. But your abrasiveness detracts from your arguments.
I guess what I should have said is, most people don’t believe they’re acting condescending. A lot of them think it’s helpful, or a compliment, like “Champ” in the jacuzzi. He’s probably the type who tells black people that they’re very “well-spoken”. :rolleyes:
Oh! Well then, there ya go.
Been an asshole, (without the sense to not brag about it), for a long time, and can’t understand why your world view sucks? Really easy to think someone is being a jerkish, condescending, asshole to you, when you’re judging the world by the asshole you have proudly become. Stop being such an ass, yourself, and you’ll stop automatically seeing it, in everyone else.