quietman1920, I suspect that you’re being deliberately obtuse.
No one is objecting to well behaved children.
What they are objecting to is a pervasive permissiveness in childrearing that enable some, repeat not all, but some parents to blithely ignore their children’s horrible behavior.
If my husband and I elect to frequent a nicer sort of restaurant, should we be subjected to screaming and yelling simply because the culprits in question are children?
I wouldn’t accept like behavior from an adult-why should I accept it from little precious.
In the same vein, why should I have to deal with a hellion running rampant in the aisles while I’m shopping?
Do badly behaved children have more rights than I do?
All I am asking for is a little respect-not perfect public behavior, just respect.
If your child throws tantrums in up-scale restaurants, either remove them from the restaurant immediately or leave them at home.
If your child is incapable of walking quietly next to your shopping cart, leave them at home.
Don’t worry about it Faruiza, ‘irregardless’ bugs me too.
I very distinctly remember thinking (before I had kids) something like this. WHY do people take their kids shopping? I was at a toy store and some kids were going nuts, I thought, “When I have kids, I’ll never take them to a toy store. I’ll just leave them at home.”
Now that I’m in the midst of reality, I know, “Leave them at home with who?”
It’s one thing when it’s something optional like a fancy restaurant. That can wait until you get a responsible baby sitter. But grocery shopping is not optional, and can’t wait. The kids go with me because I have no other choice. I try to make them behave (and they usually do), but if they’re acting up I can’t just leave them at home. The oldest one is all of 5 years old!
CiW: However, most people do eventually have kids. People who are perfectly capable of having children but choose not to are in the extreme minority.
Got a cite for that? According to this study,
And according to this, only about 6% of white women, 7% of Hispanic women, and 11% of black women are infertile.
That means that in this country, there’s something like 15–20% of all women who never have children, but under 10% of all women are infertile; which leaves maybe 10% of all women not having children even though they’re “perfectly capable” of it biologically. That sounds like more than an “extreme minority” to me.
In fact, I’ve read that in 1920 more than 20% of all women past childbearing age had never had a child; I think this assumption of “universal motherhood” as the norm was actually in decline in the first part of the century (with the advent of birth control) and picked up again around the 1950’s. As far as the actual data go, it seems pretty safe to assume that at least 10% of today’s women (whether single or married) will choose never to bear a child.
In any case, even if this weren’t so—even if 99.9999% of women chose to have children—it would still be fucking rude for ANYBODY to presume to contradict the remaining 0.0001% when they said they didn’t want kids! Polite people don’t try to tell you what YOU want in YOUR life.
I’m great with kids.
I’m patient. I listen. I make delicious healthy snacks. I unravel the mysteries of grade-3 math. I resolve disputes. I have six eyes (four in front, two in back). I tell stories. I don’t lose my temper. I like Barbie.
That is why I don’t want kids of my own. Because the world needs “aunties”, too. If I had my own kids, I would be stretched too thin: I would cease to be “SuperAunt” and become just another cranky mom.
Andros, and Dangerosa, I loved your posts.
It’s a shame it’s more fun for everyone to scream at the extremists (even before they arrive, for some 
) than to try and discuss the ‘middle ground’ with the reasonable people. The same with most topics I guess, it just can seem much more rabid with some topics, like this one.
Anyway, I just wanted to say “cheers” for being reasonable, both of you, from someone whose been a lurker in this thread from its first stumbling post-partum moments.
I eventually want kids–not right now, of course, but eventually (I’m 19, so wanting them right now would be a tad out of character). And, incidentally, I have no problem with 90% of the parents out there. They like talking about their kids; I like talking about my RPG characters. When the situation arises, compromise is called for in terms of conversation topics, and, when asked, just about anyone will do so.
There’s about 5-10% of the parents out there, though, that I can’t stand. They’re the ones who don’t realize one thing: being a parent means sacrifice.
I’m not talking the sacrifice of a relationship with a wife/husband, or the sacrifice of a social life–those are unreasonable. I’m talking about the sacrifice of sometimes not getting to do what you want to do when you want to do it.
Case in point: I saw the Matrix: Reloaded a couple of days ago. A (I presume) father had brought with his three or four year old son. It was an eight-thirty showing, which means that the movie went until about 10:30-11:00; not exactly prime little kid hours. Additionally, the kid was not at all interested in the movie; instead, he liked pulling on the back of people’s seats and talking in a conversational or louder voice. Eventually–after it became apparent that I was about to go over there and sock the dad–my SO got the manager to stand in the theater. This kept the kid quiet for as long as he stood there; after he left, the kid started up again, and all the dad would do was go “shhh.”
I’m not saying that Papa dearest shouldn’t be able to see The Matrix Reloaded; he should. He does not, however, need to see it in the opening week, regardless of whether or not he can get a sitter. Sometimes, being a parent means that you don’t get to watch the movies you want to watch until you can either get a sitter or until it comes out on video.
Additionally, parents who don’t want to give up being “cool”–and thus end up not disciplining their children–need to realize that becoming a parent does sometimes mean being the bad, uncool, square, bogus, whatever guy. Yes, there will be times that your kid will seem to hate you with an undying passion because you wouldn’t let him have ice cream for breakfast or because you won’t let her take the toys out of the boxes in Toys R Us. Believe me, unless you do something completely assholish and abusive, they will get over it.
Parents who refuse to make these small sacrifices are the ones that piss me off the most. I can’t believe the way some kids act nowadays. If I’d pulled that shit in a movie theater, my mom woulda had me outta there after the first “shhh.” Then again, my mom wouldn’t have taken me to an R-rated movie before I was old enough to be in freakin’ kindergarten, so hey…
Incidentally…I’m not great with children. I’m not bad by any means–little kids even seem to take a liking to me–but I’m by no means notable. However, I don’t think that people who are GREAT! with children will necessarily make the best parents. A small dose isn’t the same as the real thing, and being the best friend all the time–or the cool guy, or the fun guy–can actually be detrimental to raising a good kid.
This is one of the major reasons that auntie em will remain an AUNTie and I will keep my secret identity of Uncle Skippy. Come send your kids to us for a few days! Take a break.
But, um… pick ‘em up at the end of the week, will ya’?
That’s all I’m really asking, autz.
Having taken my one of my godchildren to the store from the age of three on, I appreciate how difficult it can be to restrain a rambunctious 5 or 6 year old with an agenda.
However, I didn’t just resign myself to the fact that she was attempting to run amok. I kept insisting that she walk beside me or in front of me. I tried to engage her attention by having her help select items from the shelf. I called her back constantly.
In other words, I didn’t just give up and let her set the standard for her behavior.
Now I realize that I only had to fight the battle once a month while her mom had to go through it on a weekly basis.
As she’s now 10, the results are in.
She knows that a grocery store is not the place to careen down the aisles dodging carts.
She knows that whining will not get her a candy bar.
She knows that if she launches into a hissy fit, she’ll be escorted out of the store so quickly her little head will start spinning like Linda Blair’s in the Exorcist…
Is she perfectly behaved in all stores at all times?
Hardly, she’s 10.
Is she getting there?
You betcha.
Eve, I love you. Plus I have a question for you but no email address. Would you contact me?
You have that wrong. There’s been minimal ill feelings toward children in this thread (and in general). Children are fine. It’s the clueless parents that draw hostility.
Unfortunately, this is a dodge used by parents who can’t be bothered to raise their kids with manners and respect toward others. “Never mind, Bobby, those bad people just don’t like children.”
To expand a little on Kimstu’s point…a little less than 1/2 of couples who are infertile will adopt. So of the 6% that are infertile, many of them will still have children. And since its the children/parent thing we are decrying, not the hormonal pregnancy thing, children by adoption can be just as annoying as those by birth.
Most childless people are childless by choice.
(autz, I have my groceries delivered - its great. My kids go into a grocery story maybe six times a year - a toy store maybe twice a year - and I do almost all my Target shopping on my way home from work or when Daddy has the kids on Saturday or at 9:00 at night. I know this way isn’t doable for everyone, but its really nice.)
(oh, and I’m not doing that to spare you guys from my kids, I do that to spare myself from shopping with my kids. I hate shopping. I want to get in and out as fast as possible. Bringing kids into a store really makes that tough. Makes what is, for me, a minorly stressful situation very stressful - and very stressed parents don’t handle their kids well - and the kids don’t behave well when they sense stress - they smell fear - like dogs - and take advantage of it)
Of course it would, considering where you stand on the issue.
10% is a very small number. It puts you in the extreme minority IMO. You’ll just have to excuse the other 90% of us that don’t assume you chose not to have kids.
I don’t think anyone is asking people to assume they chose not to have kids, but I for one (and I think all of us who choose not to have them) would just like people to accept the answer “I will not be having any children.” without arguing it.
I’d much prefer the discussion to go like this:
“Do you plan to have children, Six?”
“No, I don’t.”
“OK”
than like this:
“Do you plan to have children, Six?”
“No, I don’t.”
“Oh but wait until your biological clock starts ticking when you get a little older. You’ll be surprised how fast your mind changes and you want two or three of them.”
“I did mean it when I said I don’t ever want to have children.”
“Sure, you say that now, but just wait.”
…
Any other child free people feel the same?
CiW: Of course it would, considering where you stand on the issue.
You don’t even know where I stand on any aspect of this issue, except that I think that presuming to tell other people what THEY will choose in THEIR lives is rude. (And that I don’t like it when people argue using statistics that they pulled out of their ass.)
10% is a very small number. It puts you in the extreme minority IMO.
One in ten is a “very small number”? Ooookay, whatever.
One in ten isn’t a small number? What would you call the other 9 out of 10 then?
People will always assume you will eventually have kids. Having kids is normal. It’s what most people do.
Everyone should assume that everyone else is part of that itty bitty 10%?
Kimstu - Didn’t you know that 57% of statistics are just made up?
catsix - I swear, I’ve had that exact conversation (the second one). And thanks to this thread, I now have good ammunition for the next time that happens.
And to everyone making broad generalizations in this thread, what’s the weather like up your own ass?
No, we do not want you to assume that no one in the world wants children. We just want people to take NO for an answer and leave it at that. Or to realize that it’s none of their frogging business and to stop asking us stupid questions.
But I guess stupid questions will never stop. We just need to work on getting more snappy answers to them.
What people are asking is that you DON’T assume that they are going to have kids. A very simple request. They may not be a majority but they’re a fact of life. People are given choices. Respect those choices. That’s all we’re asking.
So 10,000 of 100,000 is itty bitty? Not by most standards.
When you assume you make an Ass out of U and Me.