And yet, social scientist collect data all the damn time that do support various claims. “Prove” is a tricky word anyway; we’re talking about “support”.
We don’t have sufficient empirical evidence to support that claim
If a poster makes a claim here that a different group is being discriminated against, and presents a study whose author flat out states that the study does not support that claim, I will point out that poster’s science fail. Will that poster learn something? Or buckle down, falsely claim to have provided “tons of cites”, JAQ, imply others are behaving hypocritically, and generally entertain members of the board who actually are scientists? That’s not up to me.
“Espenshade said his research found that, controlling other factors, Asian-American applicants seemed to face a disadvantage in college admissions”
What he can’t support is the notion that it’s racism that is causing this disadvantage. When we see these inexplicable disparities with ANY OTHER RACE, we don’t really hesitate to call it racism. But with Asians, it’s just inexplicable.
People like you are why racism can continue to exist.
He’s a good scientist who understands the difference between:
these results are consistent with X causing Y
and
these results support the claim that X causes Y
One gets the study published, the other, without different results, gets curbstomped by the reviewers if they’re doing their job.
I note the change in pronouns.
I believe that using poor science, or using good science poorly, to fight racism helps the racists. See the “stop helping” thread. Better arguments get the job done better.
The differences in black admission rates is clearly indicated by scores, grades and other objective criteria. I’m saying the reason they test so poorly is in part because of their culture. What do YOU think is the reason for their poor scores, grades, etc?
Where do i say that disparities in test results for blacks are due to toxic culture?
I have blamed other social ills like high crimes rates, teen pregnancy, children born out of wedlock on a toxic culture (and switched over to " unhealthy, counterproductive and self destructive elements of black culture" because the word toxic was triggering some posters).
And my question is do you require this level of evidence before you identify discrimination against other groups? Because i don’t think you do.
Not sure why that’s relevant but do you believe that asians are being discriminated against in college admissions? Or do you always require sufficient empirical evidence to support a claim before you believe it?
Wait, so you think that pointing to a study showing the sort of disparity we see in college admissions is HURTING the fight against racism because it such a weak argument that the racists will go “OMFG these guys will latch onto anything to claim racism”
Are you kidding?
When you create this much room for racists to be racist and allow them to continue being racist as long as they don’t provide incontrovertible proof of their racism, then you are helping the racists a lot more than relying on statistical data.
AFAICT, most of this board (myself included) seem to be happy to rely on statistical data to conclude that racism is why black men are more frequently the victims of police brutality. Do you think there is sufficient empirical data to “support the claim” that racism is the cause of elevated incidents of police brutality against black men?
It’s when statistics are used poorly that you undermine your own argument. For example, the improper use of statistics to try and prove that the incidence of police shooting black men has something to do with racism.
When you seem to condone racism against asians it undermines the argument against racism. Why are you defending racism against asians?
Nobody is obligated to or interested in playing the JAQ game. You are free to collect your own evidence and make your own arguments. At this point you have stated or implied that my behavior and others’ is hypocritical, or, more generously, inconsistent, multiple times. Without the merest drop of evidence. If you’re sitting on “tons of evidence” about what I do or do not require elsewhere, let’s see it. But we all know you don’t have any. Because you’ve had multiple opportunities to back up your ad hominem and have thus far utterly and comically failed to do so.
And even if you were able to pull it off, it doesn’t change what Espenshade says about his own work.
I am more than implying you are hypocritical. I am saying that the standards you apply to find discrimination against asians is significantly higher than the standard you apply to find discrimination against other groups.
What do you call a person who thinks that a low bar of evidence is sufficient to find racism against one group but requires a higher bar of evidence to establish racism against another group.
I have pointed to several studies that show disparities between scores and acceptance rates.
I have cited a former ivy league associate dean of admissions who flat out stated at there is a bias against asians in the admissions process.
I have pointed to a history of discrimination by ivy leagues against model minorities.
Short of a secret email between all these schools talking about how to keep out the chinks, what more evidence do you think it would take to convince you that there is discrimination against asians in college admissions?
You can’t take one sentence out of context and pretend it summarizes the whole of his views. It’s intellectually dishonest to pretend to only see the words that look like they support your position.
In an interview Friday, Espenshade said his research found that, controlling other factors, Asian-American applicants seemed to face a disadvantage in college admissions. Still, Espenshade said researchers lack access to other application materials, including essays and letters of recommendation, making it difficult to draw further conclusions.
“I stop short of saying that Asian-American students are being discriminated against in the college application process because we don’t have sufficient empirical evidence to support that claim,” Espenshade said
The way i read that is that he doesn’t have sufficient empirical evidence and its because he is being denied the data he needs to rule out other possibilities.
It is clear from all the data that he does have access to that there is a racial disparity with no apparent explanation. It is heavily suggested that bias and discrimination is the culprit