Obama loses. Do the young take their ball and go home?

Great Debates
41

I guess someone could say they believe that, but it would be like a Republican saying that Ron Paul is more electable. Based on what evidence? Is Hillary going to bring people out to the polls that might not vote otherwise? Is Hillary going to pull moderate Republicans away from McCain? Is Hillary going to be more appealing to Independents than McCain? I would say that if you seriously think Hillary is more likely to energize voters and get them out to the polls and has cross-over appeal to Republicans, then you haven’t talked to anyone who lives in America. You can think Hillary has more electability, but it’s hard to make a case for it. What Democrats will vote for Hillary but stay home or vote McCain if Obama is the nominee?

ETA: Well, apparently atomicbadger, but for every one person I hear say something like that, I hear a dozen say it the other way round.

You are welcome. Any time!

42

IMHO, if the candidates are largely tied and all the superdelegates go for Hilary, there are going to be a huge number of disappointed democrats, and not just young ones. Just as the 2000 Gore-Bush debacle convinced a lot of people that the popular vote in the general election is ultimately superseded by party scams and internal politics, a Hilary win by superdelegate is going to convince a lot of democrats that it is ultimately the party officials selecting the candidate, and not the vote of democratic party citizens. Once you feel this way, what is your motivation to register to vote in the next primary?

The democrats are on the cusp of alienating (or continuing to alienate) a lot of young people who are likely to become democrats only because they dislike the republicans. the democratic party is lately the anti-republican party. As a previous poster said, this attitude does not tend to galvanize very much passionate support.

43

That seemed a bit harsh in retrospect. My intent was not to mock your choice, but merely a generalized distaste for scare quotes. Not that I’ve never used them myself…

As further evidence of my rank hypocrisy: I tend to favor Clinton, but would also happily vote for Obama. I don’t really grasp the level of animosity between the two camps, especially the “I’d rather vote Republican/not vote/leave the country/die than vote for Hillary” stripe of Democrat. I have a hard time seeing how this attitude isn’t bad for the party. Supposedly Obama is the inspirational, healing choice of candidate; but I don’t get that vibe from him, or from his supporters. I’m just not feeling the love here.

I am starting to doubt the wisdom of the Clinton candidacy, and it troubles me. I used to think that the Republicans had exhausted their anti-Clinton ammo a long time ago. Now I am beginning to realize that those attacks don’t ever really go away. They’re like land mines from a past conflict, still sitting out there on the battlefield, and the only way to safely avoid them is to stay off that field. The Republicans used up well over two terms’ worth, and now that field is pretty much all mines. Which is a shame, because I think she’d be a fine President.

cricetus: you’ve given me something to think about, especially your observation about self-defeating choices. I actually don’t think that Clinton is as electable as Obama, and I am not sure how much weight that belief should carry. I do think she’d make a better President, but perhaps the difference isn’t that great. I will be greatly impressed if Obama wins the Presidency and is able to navigate a course once the mines start falling in earnest.

44

I’m a Democrat who will not vote under any circumstances for Hillary Clinton. While I’m no longer a youth, I will try to explain why.

I believe HRC is completely without principals or convictions. I believe she will say or do anything to remain in power. I have some pretty good evidence of this:

  1. Flag burning amendment, she supports (or supported) an amendment to make flag burning illegal. She did this because either a) she truly believes that some forms of expression truly do deserve to be curtailed; or b) she cynically supported the measure to appear less liberal.
  2. Iraq, she voted for Iraq either a) she was fooled by a president to vote for a flawed war (and that hardly makes her quailified to be president, does it?); or b) she cynically voted for the war so she would not appear soft on terrorism and lessen her chances of holding elected office.

I think it was option b. I think she would rather be an accomplice to the death of thousands of people than not get to be senator and president. I think the Iraqis and soldiers are little people and their deaths mean nothing compared to her ambition.

I spent two years in Iraq, I saw first hand the misery cowards or idiots (remember, she has to be one or the other) like her unleashed. I wish she could spend the rest of her life listening to the screams of the people she helped slaughter. Not voting for her might not be good for the Democratic Party, but so fucking what. In my book, you start a bad war, you don’t get rewarded for it. If I wanted to reward war mongers, I’d be a fucking Republican.

45

I agree with you. I think it also shows that running a candidate solely based on perceived electability doesn’t necessarily win elections, either.

I want to believe that Hillary or Obama will easily win the election in November, but the Obama movement is important. If Hillary wins the nomination, she could lose to McCain if she doesn’t capture the Obama supporters. I believe the true blue dems will vote for whoever is nominated, but the young, the cynical, and many Independent voters will likely not vote. I was leaning towards Hillary for many reasons, and I readily admit that I would love to see a woman POUS, but Obama will get my vote next week.

46

Sadly, I have to agree.
At the college where I teach, Obama is number one by a vast majority. They are really excited by him and I think the depression of him not becoming the nominee will hit them hard.

As an old fart, I have been around long enough to know that you still go out and at least vote for the lesser of two evils. Although I prefer Obama, I actually like Hillary and will vote gladly for her if she should win the Primary. I doubt that even half of my students will bother to go to the polls in November if Obama is not on the ticket.

However, should Obama make it to the ticket, stand back and get ready - they will be fired up like you have never seen before!

Just my humble viewpoint as a teacher of college students.

47

Obama has gotten young people excited about democracy? Not here, he hasn’t. Clinton won California handily. (Well, as handily as one can win such a race.) BTW, I worked at the election all day on Super Tuesday and most of the voters were in the 70-to-dead demographic, just like every other election.

48

Thanks, Terrifel. I rarely use scare quotes myself.

49

I worked the Connecticut one and let me tell you…the students and younger demographic came out like never before. The Yale Students had a HUGE showing…this race isn’t over by a long shot. And with Hillary borrowing money, and standing in her own shadow, Obama is forcibly gaining momentum.

I used to be a college instructor as well, and I happen to still be involved with the school I taught at and they have a huge showing for Obama. Since Tuesday, I’ve been seeing poor college students floating $10 bucks here $10 bucks there to the Obama campaign. For those poor college students out there reading this, you know how much ten bucks is to you when things are tight. And that donation to the campaign means a lot, and I don’t beleive it will be made in vain. Clinton simply doesn’t have that kind of following or support. However, college students aren’t going to win this for Obama, just as women over 45 aren’t going to win it for Clinton.

50

While I salute the sentiment that it would be damn nice to have politicans who work with each other not as cynical manipulators but as pure true believers in the public welfare whose support on each bill or initiative is solely a product of their opinion of the worthwhileness of its content, and whose support for another politican’s efforts is solely generated by agreement or disagreement with what that other politician is trying to get done, I think it’s naive and silly to think that Barack Obama or anyone else can get elected and start doing business that way.

That primarily leaves the question of how a politician treats the voting public. One could argue that its not just refreshing but vitally important and overdue to have a politician who obtains OUR support through a sincere appeal to our political imagination and vision and a clear and specific explanation of exactly what is being proposed as an endeavor or solution. One could say “Oh man, that Hillary Clinton is a cynical manipulator of the electorate, another snake oil salesperson. Obama, on the other hand, inspires us to strive to be the best USA we can be, and we know he’s going to bring change.”

OK, maybe. I’m not immune to that. I’m tired of being treated by the collective politician cesspool-dwellers as fundamentally stoopid. Grossly obvious manipulative shit like Clinton’s flag-burning amendment stuff, like husband Billy’s famous dissing of Queen Latifah, so obviously done to craft an appearance or create an impression rather than being a sincere expression of what they feel about something.

But damn, the art of winning elections is once again a competition in a very cynical environment. Y’all who compare Hillary Clinton to Karl Rove, do you honestly think those who went down before his scythe in elections past did so because they were insufficiently sincere and straightforward? Some folks would say it’s because ol’ Karl knows how to play the cynical game of electoral politics in the American political sandbox and his opponents did not.

Along comes bitch Hillary. Oh yes, one more deliberate message, blatantly crafted, to those of us tired of seeing Democratic politicians getting their soft underbellies ripped open by cynical right-wing sandbox players: “I can not only withstand sand flung in my face, I can fling it with the best of them, complete with the dried-up dog turds inside. Try me. I’m not Al Gore. I’m not Johnny Kerry. I’m not so soft.”

My biggest concerns about Obama is not that he has any kind of political agenda that I would find inferior to Clintons, but rather whether or not he can use his skills, including that motivational charisma, to get things done in the adversarial cynical environment he’s asking us to send him to. And whether he can fend off the sharks that will come after him this fall.

Perhaps indeed he can; perhaps he’s better equipped for it than Clinton is.

But I think it’s childish to get all petulant because her way of getting her way in the sandbox is so much more akin to the methods used by the opposition. It does NOT mean that she’s just like them. Her means towards her ends may be a lot like theirs but the ends are rather spectacularly different.

51

Not really, considering that the Clinton clan has historically been almost as pro-war and pro-business as they come. Wasn’t it Billy, too, who completed Reagan’s program of throwing working-class Americans on the streets by crippling the welfare system?

52

AHunter3 - well said. I’d like to address some of what you said about Obama. When the sharks come, and come they will, Obama will need to already appear locked and loaded for their arrival. He’s not surrounding himself with dummies. He surrouding himself with people and advisors who are preparing him for the battlement ahead. He must appeal to the people, and appeal to the masses because that is the path he chose to take in the election. But behind the charisma is a very intelligent U.S. Senator who is well prepared to take office and run the gammut of political gauntlets.

If you dig into his background and look at his proposal plans for his first year you’ll see he clearly states that some of his programs will sting. But they will sting significantly less than those of his current opponants.

As a campaign organizer and someone who clearly supports the man, we are watching a battle of gargantuan proportions right now. Barack Obama is taking on the second coming of the same old calvary - I have nothing against Bill or Hillary, but I do not want her leading the country!
Barack is young, he’s charismatic, he’s full of intelligent ideas to change the way the American people feel about their government. I’m blown away by the outpouring of support for him, and the nation at large is looking more and more at Barack as being a very serious contender. Let’s see what happens now that Romney is out.

53

Everyone I know under age 25 considers themselves to be an Independent.

They won’t turn out for Hillary just because she’s a democrat.

54

According to the results of a poll conducted at the request of the Obama campaign, the answer to the OP for young Latinos is a resounding ‘Yes’, they take their ball and go home.

55

I’ll be 28 in march, Do I still count as a Young Person? I like Obama. I’m not naive enough to think that he’ll shake everything to it’s foundations and rebuild it better; but at he same time I’d like to think that he’s keeping a greater percentage of Americans in mind while he’s in office. I like the idea that he’s still fairly young, and is keeping the needs of the x’ers, y’s, and Millenials in mind while making policy. I’m hoping that he’ll do something about healthcare so that the boomers will retire and make some room for us to move up. If he doesn’t make it to the ticket, I’ll still probably vote for Clinton, just to keep the pubbies out of office. If her administration is more of the same old thing I might seriously consider expatriating.

56

I’m 25 and the political world that I’ve grown up with has been quite grim, so I’m pretty cynical about American politics to start with. I like Obama, mostly because he’s making some sincere attempt to relate to me when thinking about policy. Clinton and McCain are both so old that their policies don’t reflect an understanding of what people in their early 30s and younger are going through, and I’m really not sure who I’d vote for if Obama isn’t the Democratic candidate. It’s definitely not going to be Huckabee (yes, I know, a snowball’s chance in hell, but he’s still scary to me), but I don’t know which would be a lesser of two evils between Clinton and McCain. I have very little confidence in the government at present, and I have little hope for significant enough change to not crush my generation under the weight of supporting the Boomers once they all are retired.

I’ve had serious thoughts about expatriating for years. This election and its results may light a fire under my ass to get out for a while.

57

It’s not a sandbox though, it’s real life and how you conduct yourself and how far you’re willing to go to justify the means to your end matter. Moral character matters. Honesty matters. You might think it’s childish to place these things first, to get angry when you see them cast aside as some kind of detriment instead of a blessing, but I think it’s that kind of attitude that’s allowed us as a nation to get to the shitty horrible place we are now.

That’s why Obama is doing so well. He generates so much enthusiasm that his supporters are labeled a cult ( :rolleyes: ) and he actually has substantial policy to back his positions up. All the cynics that assumed there was no other way to conduct politics are now seeing him do things differently and they’re seeing him win.

Even if Obama eventually loses this election (he won’t :mad: ), nobody could deny he got pretty damn close. Any other year, where a party icon with deep roots wasn’t running, he would have blown the competition away.

A vote for a decent man with dreams and talent and ethics can change the rules of the sandbox for the better. Voting for the status quo never will, and I’m not willing to be part of the problem anymore.

58

I left when Bush got elected the first time… I was planning to return to the US in August but those plans are on hold pending what happens with the Democratic Party. If Clinton steals this, it means American hasn’t changed and I’ll just hang out here for another 4 years.

I would not vote for Clinton no matter what… I think she is a divider and is too self interested.

I hope Obama gets the nomination, but if this goes pear shaped, come on over here for awhile.

59

I have European relatives and will have a library/information science degree in April 2009, so I’ll have enough time to make arrangements for everything if needed. I have some doubts that I’ll be leaving immediately anyway, but Canada’s looking pretty friendly these days.

60

Two points:

  1. You do know that the prime minister of Canada is a conservative now, at least by Canadian standards, don’t you?
  2. You do know that if you want to immigrate to Canada and work there there are some requirements and procedures you have to follow, don’t you? You can’t just cross the border willy-nilly like a tourist.

Ed