The Choice of the Democratic Party

The BBQ Pit
1

Hillary won NV. Not as surprising. I’d hoped Obama would win obviously, but it’s looking more and more like we’re going to end up with a Hillary nomination. Sorry I have to vent about it here, but yes, I find it horrible.

Don’t you love how the Clintons work? Oh they are so worthy of the nomination! They drag everyone in the mud. I just hope that Obama can manage to take it to them in SC.

We have Terry McCauliffe saying how Obama loves Reagan. Do we really want these sleazebags back in power? Obama said nothing of the sort, rather mentioned how he brought about change and ideas. One look at Obama’s record would show that.

We have Bill Clinton saying he “witnessed” voter intimidation. Oh really Bill? After hearing you misinterpret the controversy over the polling sites, I don’t believe a word coming out of your goddamned mouth.

I’m sick of seeing the same bullshit happen year after year after year.

Every single time there’s someone who has a decent fucking idea, and the DLC candidate comes along and fucks everything up. John Edwards doesn’t have the fucking decency to bow out.

America hasn’t had an inspiring president in ages, and again we are going down the road of more of the same. Obviously Hillary Clinton has had all of this experience being first lady of Arkansas and the US. What a load of bullshit. She disgusts me and so does Bill.

Yet we democrats can’t seem to take advantage of out biggest blessing ever. A candidate as amazing as Obama. He has the skills and power to lead America in a new direction. Hillary is a loser. She lost on healthcare, she lost on her Iraq war vote, and she lost by making Iran sound like the next target.

What is she doing to do for us? She’s going to take us back to 1992 to fight the ridiculous fights of those days. She is saying, “Hey elect me! I know how to fight the right!” Only nobody wants to do this shit anymore anyway.

We have Barack Obama here trying to appeal to people’s decency. He gives the only non-bullshit answer at the debate about his flaw. He gives real answers to the problems. He gets busted each time by assholes like John Edwards who despite having good plans and enthusiasm is making this about himself each passing day.

This could be something for America though. I guess it means we’ll have no more JFK’s Jack Kennedys, Abe Lincolns, FDRs, TRs, etc. We’ll have more triangulation and 55-45 senates. We’ll keep going with the least appealing solution on the table. A vote for Hillary Clinton is a vote to kill the American dream. It goes down the path of not making any sacrifices and going for the most acceptable choice. We all forget that a lot of the best choices that have been made by our country have been slightly unpopular at the time or even very unpopular before the president with his “Bully Pullpit” comes along and changes opinion.

Experience? How the HELL does Hillary have more of it? She has the WRONG kind of experience. I’d rather have someone completely unexperienced in the office rather than her experience.

Obama has plenty of experience in public life, in Law, and lots of other fields. What could possibly go wrong? He’d be PRESIDENT. Are people going to bully him around? Please.

I’ve been looking for a good reason to want to go back to Europe. Obama being president would keep me here. The only good thing America has going for it in my opinion is our ability to always see the bright side and make the impossible happen. The Apollo Moon landings and countless other examples. America had been the envy of all of the Western world before, and for good reason. Now we have very little to show for our former glory days. We have a candidate who realizes this and wants to restore America to its former glory through bold action and change, and Hillary who wants to go back and fight the 1990’s over again. Really, what is Hillary going to do to inspire us? If she gets elected, America is dead to me.

If there is no promise of change I won’t stand for it. Bad bureaucracy, bad infrastructure, energy dependence, etc. etc…I might as well go somewhere that I can be comfortable and secure, with no hope.

Count me as fucking sick of the Baby Boomer framing of everything in our culture. They believe that it takes the attitude of a Clinton to get things done politically. They believe that America isnt’ ready for a black president. At every turn they take us backwards to their stupid struggles in the 60’s (Remember Vietnam in 04?) like it was something anyone should give a shit about now. We need some new ideas in this country and we need them so badly. Yet we won’t get them because America is too afraid to let go of these ridiculous Baby Boomer fights…

2

I agree completely! As a younger voter (mid-20s), and fairly progressive without being radical, I hate the way the baby boomer/senior citizen voting block tends to cast the vote against any sort of novelty. I know everyone has a right to vote, yadda yadda, but it’s getting tiresome to be politically stuck in a generational mindset that’s 20 years out of date.

3

Speaking for myself as a Norwegian citizen who just compared Obama and Clinton’s keynote speeches, amen brother. (Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that Obama was a Doper, that’s how on net I am with his positions) I am also very impressed at his eloquence, his into-the-mean-side confrontations with the religious divide, even though we’re on the opposite side of the religious spectrum. I could work with the man, I could comfortably vote for him and I would admire and respect him as a president. I could go back to thinking the GWB era was a fluke, an anomaly, and again draw comfort from the US public’s intelligent and reflected nature.

Which makes me all the more disappointed with the Clinton campaign’s underhanded undermining of his abilities and experience and theft of his characteristics. More experienced? No, you do not have half the experience he does. More capable of leading the US to real, much-needed change? No, that’s his goals. What you’re doing is internalizing his good attributes, falsely, and stealing votes that should rightfully go to him, without neither intent nor ability to actually follow them through. What you want is the power and profile of President, to work for your own, antiquated goals, in your own, antiquated fashion.

You’re Ready To Lead? No, you think you deserve to be thrown leadership as a boon for Long and Faithful Service. You think because you’ve been in queue for so long, it’s finally Your Turn. So fuck you and your campaign, Clinton; go to the hell reserved for people who steal what they shouldn’t have, because they can.

4

Interesting that you’re from Norway. I lived in Denmark for the last two years. If I felt like going back to Europe it’d probably be there. Scandinavia is very stable, but can be very boring in terms of life-long goals. America used to have the promise of being the land of where anything is possible, yet now it seems to be slipping away. The promise of the future would be enough for me if Obama won, but if Hillary wins, I might vote for someone else.

You realize the worst part of this, isn’t that Hillary says these things, it’s because people actually believe that shit coming out of her fucking large mouth. It’s depressing that such a large majority can actually be interested in this warmed over “more of the same” that she’s selling.

Anyway, thanks a lot Baby Boomers. Not only have you greedily fucked over our generation by putting us in debt and creating all of our fucking problems these days, you are too fucking unimaginative to fix it.

5

I’m just plain sick of Hillary Clinton. From First Lady to Senator and now Presidential candidate, she’s barely left the news at all in the past sixteen fucking years! I’ve gone from not having much of an opinion on her at all to seething with irrational rage every time I see her dried-up, not-entirely-human, robot face. If it’s not her or one of her cohorts propping her up, then it’s a conservative vilifying her. Either way, she’s always around. GO THE FUCK AWAY, HILLARY!

You’re right that she’s very much the choice of an older generation. In the newspaper the other day, they printed the results of a mock primary at a local high school. Obama had four times more votes among the teenagers than Hillary!

6

It baffles me that Hillary Clinton is even being considered as the Democratic Presidential nominee. With the possible exception of the incumbent, she’s easily the most divisive politician in the country. A Hillary victory would condemn America to four more years of the most spiteful and venomous partisanship imaginable. You think Whitewater went away? Fuck that. That zombified slander will be wrenched out of the mausoleum for another four year tour of every inbox in America. Remember those fifty billion people Bill Clinton had killed? Well, they’re all gonna rise from the fucking dead, aren’t they? Why would any sane voter volunteer to immerse himself in four more years of that bilious garbage?

Face it, Hillary Clinton is possibly the only candidate with a good shot at losing this election for the Dems, especially if she’s up against McCain. She’s far enough to the right that she’s in danger of disillusioning a significant percentage of her base (some of whom, inexplicably, seem inordinately enamoured of the Senator from Arizona) while simultaneously carrying enough fucking baggage to turn off the independants. She’s stilted, she’s utterly devoid of rhetorical flair, she’s always got that fucking ghoulish rictus grin on her face, and she’s about as spontaneous as a fucking ice floe. In debates, she excels as a practitioner of the dark political art of the non-answer, able to endlessly equivocate on just about any topic without actually saying a God damned thing. To me, she comes across as the politician’s politician. The sort of person who would say anything, do anything to get your vote while it’s useful.

And boy, is she hated. Really, I can’t emphasise that enough. She is loathed and despised beyond measure by a massive, massive segment of the American electorate. The Republican’s could clone Ronald Reagan, and then the fucking clone could go out and kill OBL, and it wouldn’t stand as much of a chance at winning the Presidency than whoever goes up against Hillary Clinton. And that’s not even counting the dumbfuck goobers who think all a woman President’s gonna do is menstruate all over the legislation.

Dems, please. I’m begging you. For all that is good and holy in the world. Choose someone else.

7

Yeah, I know how you guys feel.

I know it’s the Democratic process, and everyone gets a vote, and who am I to tell people what to do and then complain when they don’t, but it’s insanely frustrating. This is the first time in forever I’ve really and truly been excited about a presidential candidate, and opposing him is a candidate who really can’t compare to him in charisma or intelligence, who rubs me the wrong way personally, and is apparently going to use her husband (whom I am a huge fan of) to slander him at every opportunity. It is maddening.

And so part of me wants to say: hey Baby Boomers. If you’re behind this, GTFO of politics. I really don’t like Hillary at all, and I’ll get in line behind her if I have to, but I know many others won’t.

But this is how things work I guess, and so I may have to wait for next time. It’s like being a Cubs fan.

8

No, not everyone has a right to vote. We already base voting rights on age. I see no reason why we could not, in theory, remove the right to vote from people over, say, 60.

I’m not saying it would be a good idea, but it might be worth a try. Maybe allow anyone age 16 to 65, in order to be a bit more inclusive. After that? Well, you’ve had your shot. Go drink your Metamucil and be happy we don’t recreate Logan’s Run.

Sorry. I guess I’m just depressed that it looks more and more like the Democrats will select Hillary, who will almost certainly lose in the election. Granted, the Republicans seem splintered all to hell, so she might eke out a win. If she gets the nomination, I’m going to have to look hard at the Republican nominee and make some hard choices. Actually, fuck that - I’ll just write in Obama.

9

Luckily we do see a lot of other good news for Obama in general. He seems to be getting a lot of important support. I hope…I seriously hope that this win in Nevada will convince the rest of the people to come out of the woodwork and stand for Obama.
And Edwards? You’re a spoiler if you don’t get out and endorse Obama. Simple as that.
Seriously, the only thing, the ONLY thing that Hillary fans say that they’d like about her is that she’d be “ready from day one” she “has experience” This is a total fucking farce.

Bill Clinton, btw, is a fucking liar. We all liked it when he was lying for our cause, but now I’m sick of his shit. He lies about a good man, Obama, and lied about voter intimidation. Yeah he witnessed it, voter intimidation by HRC is being seen all over the liberal blogosphere.

ETA: You’d think we’d learn our lesson…Seriously.

Gore in 00. Sure we had little choice, he was essentially incumbent
Kerry in 04? That was the wakeup call if I ever saw one.
Do we need to have Clinton in 08, another loss to learn?

10

Wow, you people are some serious Negative Nellies! Get a grip!

What exactly makes baby boomers ineligible to vote, or unable to make good decisions? What makes your 20-something opinion better than that person’s 50-something?

And someone explain exactly what Hillary has claimed to do that’s so evil. And what exactly Obama has claimed he’d do that’s so revolutionary?

I just don’t see how plugging any of the very capable Democratic front-runners into the office of POTUS is going to end in the horrors that some in the Obama camp insinuate. Jeezum crow, people, are we watching the same debates and reading the same articles? If you’re an Obama supporter, do you really think that Romney, for example, is going to represent your views better than Hillary?

11

I know it. :slight_smile:

Absolutely nothing. Several of us have said as much. We just want what we want, like any other voter, and we’re just frustrated that it’s not happening. You see the same thing when the Red Sox lose.

The difference is, many of us are younger, and we are sick of the way politics are currently run. And we see Hillary as four more years of back-and-forth sniping in Washington. And rightly or wrongly, Obama claims to be able to move us past that.

Evil? She’s not evil. You will not see me state that Clinton and Obama diverge significantly on the issues–in fact any differences are quite subtle. What is revolutionary about Obama is simply the fact that he is inspiring and engaging, and I feel that his personality will make him a more effective and inclusive leader than one who is so divisive. Furthermore, I feel he is simply more intelligent than Clinton, although she’s no moron. And finally, I identify with his youth, and he speaks to the young. And not just to say “Hurr hurr, young people don’t vote or care about politics.” Man I’m sick of that. I’ve voted in every election since I’ve been eligible.

Honestly, I don’t. I think Hillary will do a fine job. I just feel like when it comes to leadership, personality and approach do count for a lot, and in a field of candidates with similar views, Obama is head and shoulders above the pack in charisma.

12

I lol’d.

But seriously, what about the GWB era is a fluke even in American history? He waged war in the name of peace and democracy and used the threat of a foreign danger to expand governmental power at home. That’s not an anomaly. That was a cliche nearly a hundred years ago when Wilson did it.

The idea that Obama represents change is downright stupid. How can otherwise intelligent people fall for this hoary technique of casting oneself as an outsider or an agent of change and thereby transforming your hate of the status quo to support for him? For fuck’s sake, it’s embarrassing. Even if he was some well meaning pedestrian who somehow found himself running for POTUS it’s naive to think any one person could change the course of the rotting hulk that is “the system.” Which he is of course not. Audacity of hope my ass.

One facet of this thread is correct, however. Hillary Clinton is a shrewd, calculating bitch. However, someone will have to explain using short words how this separates her from Edwards. Or Saint Obama. Or Romney. Or FDR. Although her anatomy is quite different compared to her peers she still shares that quench for power and the ability to enrich her friends with the stroke of a pen. And that’s all that counts.

13

You can say I’m a dreamer, but I’m not the only one.

14

I’m disappointed, too.

But let’s not dispair just yet. Maybe this loss in NV will energize Obama supporters and get their asses to the polls. We still have Super Tuesday left, and it’s not like Clinton beat Obama overwhelmingly.

15

Clinton fatigue is a recognized psychological disorder. :slight_smile:

I think she’s done a lot to make friends in Congress, and the Hillary Hate has mellowed quite a bit. Limbaugh will keep yammering, but so what? I don’t think an HRC presidency will be as bad as you guys think.

Now, get off my lawn!

16

If she gets elected, I’ll be happy.

But I don’t think she can get elected! I think the OP feels the same way.

17

Okay, so for the first time in history we’ve got a black man and a white woman as serious contenders for, at least the Democratic nomination, if not actually taking the White House and this is a bad thing? :confused:

Yeah, yeah, I know, Hillary should be yesterday’s news, but damn it this is history we’re talking about. The fact that she’s not automatically laughed at because she’s a woman is freakin’ progress. Oodles of other nations (like Pakistan, India, and the Philippines, to name but three) have all managed to put a woman in the top job, but not the US which is supposed to be the gold standard of democracy.

For all her baggage, Hillary will be handicapped in the national election about as much as Obama will. Plenty of people will refuse to vote for Obama based on the color of his skin or his unchristian name. Nor will Obama be free from partisan bullshit being flung at him (and indeed, there will probably be rabid pro-Hillary Dems flinging it as well). We’re way too early in the whole thing to be able to say that if Hillary get’s the nomination the GOP will take the White House.

The Dems are at least fairly united in who they’re going for, while the Republicans are all over the map by comparison. Romney, Huckabee, and McCain all have their own baggage and unless a clear winner emerges soon, they’re going to start tearing one another to pieces which will horribly weaken the eventual nominee. Clinton, Obama, and Edwards all have sense enough to hold back on the vitrol towards one another because they realize how important the election is. Obama’s young enough that he can run again in 2012 and/or 2016 if he doesn’t get the White House now. Hillary’s pushing the limit, and Edwards probably will never be seen as a viable candidate by anyone.

I’ve heard several conservative types say that if their favored GOP candidate doesn’t get the nod, they’ll vote for Hillary. Of course, the Dems are famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, so anything’s possible.

18

Certainly, that part of my post was written with tongue firmly in cheek. The part of my brain that analyzes political history and notes patterns is certainly not malfunctioning. However, it’s been a long, long time since I’ve seen what you described performed so, well, ineptly, as in the GWB era.

As for Obama’s difference from the rest of the lot, I entertain no illusions that he does not have skeletons in his closets, or that some will not appear in his term of office, if he is elected. However, and this analysis may certainly be more than 90% gut reaction, I do entertain a hope that he will at best enact some of the changes he is promising and at worst, merely sit there.

And the bottom line for me is that seeing an intellectual, eloquent and apparently reflected individual elected to President of [one of] the most powerful nations in the world will be deeply satisfying in it’s own right. Defending the US as an ally and brotherlike cultural character/influence in Norway is a strained exercise with the currently pants-on-head retarded leadership.

19

End divisiveness? President Obama takes a twig from the white dove and extends the olive branch of peach across the aisle, whereby his arm is bitten clean off at the shoulder by the snarling pack-wolves of the GOP opposition.

It takes 2 to end divisiveness and the GOP is not now in a mood for reconciliation for the good of the country. After a loss to Obama, not now, not ever. Hard, shrewd, calculating and ruthless is what you need in your Democrat president. Someone who will ruthlessly marginalise and destroy the GOP at every opportunity. Because he or she will face opponents bent on exactly the same.

20

Fucking substantiate that claim right there asshole.

I want to see evidence of how Obama is going to do that. His record is more liberal than Hillary’s.

Hillary voted for the Iraq war,
Hillary voted to fuck with Iran.

Could she be more fucking stupid?

Hillary will destroy and marginalize alright, but only the people that she hates left and right. She has played some VERY dirty games in NV that really piss me off…