Mr. 2001 said he believes 13 year olds are able to consent to sex with an adult, which is exactly what ambla believes and uses in their defense.
So if he believes this, he must think nambla is a okay.
I want him to admit that.
Not a popular position, but he seems to advocate it.
Still waiting
Looking up, I see Mr.2001 has said SOME children are able to consent to sex.
How these are determined from the rest I do not know.
SO if nambla advocates taking a child as a sexual partner, SOME of them are really conseting, just like NAMBLA says"He wanted me too!"
A bad position; children are children, how hard is this to figure.
I cannot imagine having wanted to had sex with anyone other than my own age when I was a minor(though I didn’t have sex til I was over the age of consent).
I would’ve thought they were nuts.
Something I think is interesting is that so many posts speculating about the boy’s feelings have come to the conclusion that, given his age, presumed horniness, and the “hotness” of the teacher, he couldn’t possibly have been in any way unwilling. That is, he couldn’t have said no. Well, if you can’t say “no”, how meaningful can your “yes” be? That’s not making a choice. If this boy was incapable of resisting then the teacher took advantage of him in a serious way, even if he was a “willing victim”.
Barring mental incapacitation of some kind, an adult man would be expected to be able to turn this woman down. Not that he necessarily would turn her down, even if that were the smart thing to do, but he should have the ability to make such a decision. If this boy didn’t possess that ability, he didn’t possess the ability to give informed consent. I’m in no position to know what, if any, psychological harm this particular boy might have suffered from engaging in sex that he couldn’t give informed consent to, but I’m comfortable saying that the teacher did something reckless and very, very wrong.
Not to mention, Lamia, that there are some people-yes, even young teenage boys-who just AREN’T ready for sex, and admit it-some even for religious reasons. Or what have you.
I do think it’s possible to say, “He may not have been traumatized by it.” But I think it’s ignorant and offensive to say, “Oh how could he NOT? He’d be crazy to say no!” Which implies that somehow, if said student DID turn down the teacher, he’d be some kind of freak.
If you believe that most minors are unable to consent to sex, then there must be some way to determine whether a person is able to consent to sex, right? Otherwise the phrase “most minors are unable to consent to sex” is meaningless, because it can’t be proved or disproved.
The story in the OP is not about a child, it’s about a 14 year old adolescent.
And yes, some 13 or 14 year olds give consent. The word “yes” doesn’t somehow mean “no” when it comes from the mouth of a teenager.
As for the NAMBLA connection… I’ve looked at their site, and this is the closest thing I’ve found to a position statement.
Sounds good to me.
Also sounds good. I would write “anyone” instead of “men and boys”, but it’s to be expected from a group that has “Man-Boy” in its name. What do you find objectionable in those quotes?
Another interesting thing I found there is this article on ageism:
Pretty close to my thoughts… I believe I’ve even posted something similar on this board before.
Now, I know NAMBLA is a controversial group, and I was hoping to find something a little more outrageous on their site. If you have a link, please don’t hesitate to share it.
One big difference between them and me, and the youth rights groups I’ve belonged to, is that NAMBLA focuses only on sex, and particularly on homosexual sex. At least, that’s what their name implies.
I feel there are a lot more important youth rights issues today than sex, especially since the AOC laws in many states already make exceptions for couples who are within a few years of each other. I support the abolition of legal age restrictions wherever they occur, and the age of consent is just one of them; however, it is a particularly controversial one, and it comes up more often on the SDMB than any other youth rights issue.
Well, you could pick any supermodel and ask adult men the same question, and probably get the same answers. If a horny adult man finds himself “unable” to say no to Heidi Klum because she’s just so damn hot, does that mean any sex he might have with Heidi Klum would automatically be rape? What should a very attractive woman do to make sure that men are saying yes to her because they Truly Consent, not because they’re paralyzed with desire?
So… you have no prob with an adult having sex with a 13 your old girl?
Age has nothing to do with it. If she is physically capable of having sex without harm and knows what she’s getting into, how to avoid risks, etc. then I have no problem with it, whether she’s 13 or 30. OTOH, if she doesn’t know those things, then she shouldn’t be having sex, whether she’s 13 or 30.
Interesting. I’ll call around tomorrow and talk to some psychologists, I’m curious about this.
My biggest fantasy at 14 involvd killing a lot of people. Since it’s my fantasy, I guess it would have been great if it had come true, right?
I have zero tolerance for zero tolerance laws/policies. I have very little tolerance for age of consent laws. One size never fits all. The depth and breadth of humanity will simply not fit into the square pegs of zero tolerance and age of consent statutes. I was one of those extremely mature adolescants and I did indeed resent the strictures of society upon my relationships. I did not personally violate them, but I would have had no compunction at doing so had I a partner of similar maturity and we had both talked through and worked at mitigating the risk. I realize age of consent statutes are well-intentioned laws and they protect more people than they restrict, but as soon as it becomes possible for some sort of accurate tests for “ready for a sexual relationship”-ness I’ll be hopping in the booth to vote those laws right out. In the meantime as long as judges/prosecutors have discretion to reduce sentances for couples with at least one “underage” member as a result of demonstrable maturity on the part of the underage parties I’ll settle for it as the lesser of evils.
Nota Bene the teacher who was the subject of the OP should probably have the book thrown at her. Not only did she abuse the teacher/student relationship, she is alleged to have “gotten off” on doing something because it was forbidden. This seems to be the definition of a sexual predator, seeking sexual concourse with underage males because of the high associated with bucking the taboo.
Enjoy,
Steven
Man, you’re just nasty. Please take it to the pit. I was just joking when I called you a nerd in a thread the other day. I’m not joking now.
I thought he was implying he would talk to psychologists about the mental faculties of 13 year old girls, but I suppose it could be an attack.
Zagadka, buddy, if you’re suggesting that someone can diagnose my mental state over the internet by reading posts on a message board, please don’t be afraid to send me a private email about it. I have a whole folder full of offers for generic Viagra, low interest mortgages, and Nigerian investment schemes where it will fit in perfectly.
Sorry if this has been hit before… It’s bedtime and I didn’t read the whole thread, but a skim did not see this point:
In the age of contraception, sex between two disease free people of any age is bad only in those cases where society teaches us it is bad. Sex is fun. Sex makes people feel good.
A 14 year old having sex with a 23 year old is only seen as wrong because our society conditions us to see it as wrong. Abusive use of power in a relationship? Purely a societal norm. If there were less emphasis put on the “power” of sex, then sex would have no power. If sex were treated like a handshake, our society would be much healthier.
I can’t help but imagine a situation where a pervy-but-pretty female teacher comes on to a gay teenaged boy. Maybe she even knows he’s gay, and threatens to “out” him if he refuses her advances. It would be bad enough that such a boy would suffer sexual abuse at the hands of an authority figure, but worse still if everyone he knew considered him a lucky dog for being abused. The same goes for any unwilling boy, regardless of sexual orientation.
We can’t know how this kid feels about the situation. It may be that he suffered no ill effects and never will. It may be that he felt threatened by the teacher from the beginning and was afraid to turn her down. But unless the purpose of the law is solely to punish people for harm they do to others, the boy’s feelings on the subject are not the only important factor. It’s also important to consider whether this teacher’s behavior, if left unchecked, could harm other young people. Even if the kid in this case was delighted, the next one might not be. I’d also be concerned that this woman would be tempted to seek increasingly extreme thrills by engaging in increasingly dangerous sexual behavior with minors.
An ordinary adult man of ordinary mental capacity would not be unable (note my lack of quotes – I am using the word literally) to turn down Heidi Klum. Under favorable circumstances he probably wouldn’t want to, but not wanting to do something isn’t the same thing as being unable to do it. Would our hypothetical horny adult man be so keen to sleep with Ms. Klum if he knew she’d go to prison for it? What if he knew he’d go to prison for it? There are any number of factors that could suddenly make the otherwise-desireable Ms. Klum much less tempting, and an ordinary man should be able to turn her down if he has good reason to. If, as some have implied, this boy was unable to say “no” despite the much less than favorable circumstances involved, then his expressed consent was meaningless.
I remember being 14. I remember how seriously I took everything, and how seriously my friends took everything. I could tell you stories, but I’m not sure GD is the place for anecdotes. But at least one poster in this thread has brought up the possibility of the woman breaking things off before the boy was ready for it to end. In that situation, he might be motivated to:
Harm/kill the husband, who he would see as a threat to his own relationship.
Harm/kill the teacher, if she broke things off with him, on the grounds that “if I can’t have you, no one will”.
Harm/kill himself, because when you’re 14, anything that hurts at all, hurts more than you feel you can bear.
It might have been a lark to her, but it very likely wasn’t to him. Even if he did “want it”. Especially if he did “want it”.
Some situations require Aeschines to get sick of moronic debate and cut through the thick BS. This is one of them.
We’ve got a weirdly puritanical society. 100 years ago we would have been pissing and moaning over the fact that these idiots committed adultary. Oh, the horror! They have broke a commandment of Gawd!
Now, however, we piss and moan over the issue of “abuse.” This poor lad was of such and such an age–that’s abuse, oh Jezus, save us!
Bullshit. 100 year ago the men would have hailed this kid a hero for his part of the action, cursed the women as a “Jezebel.” The women would have cursed her while failing to applaud the conquest of the youth.
I think it’s interesting that no-one in this thread has taken a moral stance on the thing: no one gives two fux about adultary any more. But abuse, well, that’s not only a moral issue, it’s medical! And this woman is an “abuser” because, well, I dunno but that age thing is troublesome, ain’t it? Don’t the LAW have somfin to say 'bout that?
What a bunch of bumpkins we are, blowing hot air about “abuse” and whatnot, while forgetting completely such old-fashion’ ideals as chastity. So, I’ll tell you wot, let’s put our ducks in a row: young’un gets off on screwing older white trash hottie. Sich ends in bullshit. Case dismissed.
Can I “handshake” you then ? 
Sorry couldn’t resist. I agree 100% with you… but the fact is that sex isn’t “normal” or “healthy” to many people. Your argument could also support pedophiles of the male kind. Hopefully we will develop a more healthy relationship with our sexual impulses in the decades to come.
I submit that the people who’ve suggested the kid was literally unable to say no are exaggerating. I remember being a teenager, and while I certainly wanted sex, I didn’t go into a trance whenever the possibility of sex arose.
If it really is possible for a male to be so paralyzed with desire that his consent is meaningless, then what is an attractive woman supposed to do in order to avoid unwittingly raping someone? Wear a bag over her head?
Let me turn this back around on you. If we posit that a fourteen-year-old is incapable of choosing not to have sex, does this mean that we can no longer prosecute fourteen-year-olds for rape or sexual assault? I’m not sure how we split the difference–how we would claim that a teenager is incapable of choosing whether to have sex consensually, but capable of choosing whether to have sex forcibly.
This starts to make sense to me: strangely, if we treat statutory rape as a victimless crime, prosecuting it in this case makes more sense. We prosecute not because her crime had a victim, but because it could have had a victim.
I’m still not happy with its prosecution, but I can see how it might make sense.
Daniel
Then given that we are not privy to the boy’s innermost thoughts, I think we must entertain the possibility that he wasn’t as wholeheartedly enthusiastic as some have suggested. If he was capable of considering the situation in the manner necessary for his consent to be informed, he may have been hesitant despite his youthful hormones. Or maybe he wasn’t; none of us here have any way of knowing. But the argument that the boy must have been completely willing because no boy in his situation could possibly resist, and therefore no harm was done, is troubling to me.
Either teenaged boys are slaves to their hormones or they aren’t. If they are, their “consent” is meaningless. If they aren’t, it’s possible that a given teenaged boy might not want to sleep with his sexy teacher, so we can’t assume that anytime such a case comes up the boy must have been willing. It could be that this particular boy was in fact completely willing, but it’s not a given.
*Ask someone who really believes such a thing is possible. I’m not the one who thinks that any teenaged boy on earth would be unable to say “no” to sex with this woman, or would even commit desperate acts in order to have the chance.