Well, that is just it. A 14 year old boy with a “hot” teacher would never think about those kinds of things, and he is not old enough to know he is responsible for his actions (in a legal and realistic sense). I’ll bet ya dollars to donuts that all the guys in this thread spouting off about being proud of him and saying they would do the same - well, yea, of course they would. You’re irresponsible. In plain terms, you’re an idiot. If anyone thinks ENCOURAGING this behavior in any way is a good idea…
Unless I’m mistaken and all the masturbation fantasies by the guys in this thread involved condoms and birth control (in reality, I’m guesstimating that most of them would hit anything placed in front of them even today).
She’s a criminal, black and white. What is even most appalling is her role as an educator!
Okay, what’s the minimum age to post at the SDMB? Maybe we could get some input about this from our youngest dopers?
Okay, I’ll state my opinion like this:
Its wrong for a 14 year-old to have sex with a 23 year-old
Its wrong for a teacher to have sex with a student
but… do I think the kid is going to be harmed? Hell no. Do I think he was forced? nope. Do I think he wanted to and liked it? Defenite yes.
I think there is a certain reasoning why we think the situation would be different if the sexes were reversed. At birth, our social conditioning tells us two things. Males should want to have sex. Its our job to initiate it and it is an acchievement to have sex with a girl. Every guy looks forward to his first time having sex as something that he would ideally have as soon as possible. Girls get trained to find the right guy and even to be chaste till the find him. In the younger years we have images of girls resisting sex and guys wanting it. There are exceptions, but this is the social conditioning. Even though a girl of 14 may want to have sex, she feels like its a bad thing. This also applies to the idea that for guys to have sex with a lot of girls, he’s a player and it shows his potency or his charisma. For girls to have sex, they are sluts and are weak, and shows a character flaw. I am not saying that this is the way I think, but couldn’t we agree that there is some social contitiniong along that line? I think this explains why we think it would be different if it were a girl and man instead of a boy and woman.
What do you other dopers think about this?
Gotta say that I’ve been getting really upset at the “Beavis and Butthead” types of reactions I’ve been seeing in this topic…
Like a kid having sex with an authority figure is somehow a good thing… The double standard is amazing…
If this had been a 14 year old boy with his male teacher, people would be wanting to lynch the teacher…
If this was a 14 year old girl with a male teacher, they’d be wanting to kill the teacher…
But because it’s a boy with a female teacher, it means the boy has somehow become a member of some “honored” club. NAMBLA would be proud of alot of the comments written in this thread…
Is the kid going to be harmed? Maybe, maybe not. Psychology is a difficult field. Was he forced? No. Did he want it and like it? Yes. Does all abuse feel bad? No. Do all abused people protest the abuse? No. Do some abused people seek abuse? Yes. Does liking it mean it isn’t abuse or isn’t harmful? No.
From what I understand, one need not be the one “penetrated” to be raped. She performed oral sex on him, right? THAT can be considered rape, at least statutory rape (i.e. he may or may not have been willing but he was clearly underage). Any sex act performed on someone is just that, whether they are “penetrated” or not.
RE: what would you have done and fantasies - I’m a happily married woman who has had her share of sexual fantasies, thank you very much. One of them is - how to put this? - being the “guest of honor” at an orgy. NOW, while I may still HAVE this fantasy, that doesn’t mean I want to run out and do it. In fact, before I was married an unhappily married friend of mine and her husband did broach the subject of a threesome, with one of me being the three. They didn’t come out and say it, but the husband kept dancing around the subject and I finally caught on to what was being implied, and at the end of the end of the evening the wife took me aside and appologized for making me so uncomfortable. I HAD the opportunity to do a particular act I had thought about, but when faced with it really happening I said no.
Long story short, there’s a world of difference between what you’re willing or able to do in your fantasies and what you are willing or able to do in real life.
And it sure shouldn’t be put upon you by an authority figure, even if that person has no direct authority over you (some folks have pointed out she wasn’t HIS teacher - I don’t think that matters, she still was in a more powerful possition than he is).
It’s hard to say. The fact she apparently sought out the relationship and engaged in flagrant acts like having sex with the boy while on the road in the presence of another boy speaks of some pathology, and perhaps even a lack of conscience. But we’ll have to wait for more of the facts of the case to come out.
I’m not even certain if she’s a pedophile. She apparently sought out sex with the boy not because he was a minor per se, but because sex with a minor was dangerous, and she found this danger to be a turn-on. I dunno, I’ve never heard of anything like this, to be honest.
OK, I’m going to tread some dangerous water, but here goes: I had a professor come on to me once. She was an awkward, somewhat homely, but very sweet woman who was unfortunately a rather unskilled pedagogue; and I think she had some personality issues, like social phobia, perhaps. How she wound up at my school I don’t know, but she was very bright, there was no question of that. She taught a very small NMR spectroscopy class that I was in, and while my fellow students savaged her in their end-of-term evaluations, I felt bad for her and tried to accentuate her good points. Given that there were only three other students taking the course, and they didn’t make a secret of their frustration as the class wore on, it wouldn’t be too hard for her to figure out who wrote the kind asessment.
After that class, NMR was revisited in another class. Part of the course was an optional field-trip to check out an MRI facility, and she tagged along. Afterwards, when we were getting ready to head back, she offered me a ride (this was a pretty small field-trip, and a small van plus some cars were all that was needed to ferry those who were interested to-and-fro). I said yeah, sure. I figured she’d ask others who were there too, but she didn’t. Somehow everyone found a ride back to where they wanted to go very quickly, and I was the only one left with her. So, we’re driving back, and after a long pause she says she’s hungry, like “Boy, I’m hungy, aren’t you hungry?” This was followed too quickly by “I wish I liked the dining hall food better…” Then she was silent. Then she said “My apartment is just down that way…but we’re going back to campus first, right?” Man, every alarm was going off in my head. I just knew there was something I was supposed to say, but I didn’t. More awkward silence. I look over at her, and her hands are shaking on the steering wheel. I was ready to crawl out of my skin at this point, so I just started blabbering about how interesting the field trip was. She seemed incredibly relieved to have something to talk about, and we chatted idly on this subject until I was back at the dorm. I thanked her and got out of the car. I walked to the door hurredly and quickly entered.
She only drove a short distance away and had pulled over away from the lights (it was dark). From my window I could see her shadow in the car sort of convulsing, and it looked an awful lot like sobbing to me. What could I do? I went up to my room and was very troubled about this for the rest of the evening. But I said nothing to anyone until a long time later. I mean, why? She didn’t hurt me or force me to do anything. I didn’t feel like she used her position of authority to daunt me or threaten me into submission. Frankly, I thought she was going to have a nervous breakdown or something, and I pitied her. She seemed lonely, and depressed, and I honestly wished I could have helped her out somehow. I just let it go.
Later near the end of the semester, a fellow student told me one of the Math profs (who so happened to have been denied tenure, just as the woman above was also denied) asked her out for a drink after finals. She was infuriated, and was crafting a letter to send to our Deans. Probably, this was a rather ineffectual gesture, as he was already moving on, but still, all he did was ask her out. I remember this guy. He came across real smooth, but he was very unattractive, and seemed to have a bit of a chip on his shoulder. I suspect he had some “issues”. If he had been prince charming, who knows how this vengeful coed would have responded. That was my assessment at the time. Bad move on his part. I remember thinking about another prof. who was famous for bedding coeds. I mean, it’s not like it was a secret to anybody. He was a suave man, looking a bit past his prime, but still bearing the vestiges of a dashing jock in the way he carried himself. His advances probably were flattering. Nobody wrote any letters about him, I’m pretty sure.
Do you understand that you are making no sense at all?
Let’s recap the facts:
Some people on the SDMB think that a 14 year old male having sex with an adult female is “good”
You claim that in this scenario the 14 yeal old male is abused by the adult female
Your conclusion:
Being an abuser is accepted as normal *male * behavior
Your own theory states that the *female * was the abuser in this case. How does one supporting this act imply that it is accepted for *males * to abuse?
If you don’t understand that it is not even AN example (it is a horrible example, due to the gender of the abuser in the “example”), there is no point debating this any further.
Have fun with your illogical conclusions for the remainder of the thread…
Excuse me? Would you like to retract that? 'Cause you fucking need your head looked at.
My reference was to your bizarre contention that all men are predators. Had you bothered to read my post, I stated that I felt that adults should not be involved sexually with minors.
I absolutely agree with you these points and wish you had mentioned them, oh, a page ago.
Although – I am being nit-picky, I know – concerning sado-masochistic personalities and sexual relations (although I don’t think that’s the case here0 – IS it really abusive if the older sexual aggressor has the younger person’s consent, cooperation and compliance?
I am curious about the OTHER kid in the story, the cousin with who the 14-year old was staying with who acted as a go-between and chauffer, and his complicitnes in all this. Apparently it was his loud-mouthed bragging about his cousin that broke the story – his mom heard rumors, overheard her son bragging, called the 14-year old’s mom who confronted her son, who confessed to Mom, then police. What was acting out of? Vicarious thrill? Jealousy? Anger? Reflected street cred? I kinda doubt the cousins are going to continue to be so buddy-buddy after Loudmouth Cousin screwed up the Cousin Who Was Getting Some.
I also have been wondering whether they were of a different socioeconomic/ethnic background than the teacher, and whether that too was part of her attraction, as it probably was with Mary Kate Letourneau and her 13-year old lover, Vili Fualaau – father of TWO of her children.
Also, re-reading the initial news story, it seems that the 14-year old was serving time in the detention in the last days of school in the teacher’s classroom – at her request.
Also, the initial first sexual encounter – the kiss in the classroom – seems to have taken place after the school year was over and the teacher was (probably) shutting down her classroom for the summer break.
She drove him around, got him a haircut, sized him up (and his cousin) before making her move. But the overtly sexual and flagrant display makes me think that, somehow, she wanted to be caught.
I would NOT like being in this principal’s shoes. YIKES. What a mess to have to deal with with your staff. Plus the whole staff will probably have to go through some bullshit sexual harrassment/‘how to spot a pedaphile’ training over the summer, or before the next school year. YEESH. Tsk. I hope they get paid.
I’m not familiar enough with NAMBLA’s positions to say whether I agree with them. I’m sure there are some 13 year olds who are not able to make that decision, as well as some who are. The ones who are able should be allowed to make it.
Advocating statutory rape? You mean like how someone who suggests raising the speed limit is “advocating speeding”?
As for that study I mentioned… the hamsters weren’t on my side, so I turned to Google. I believe A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse Using College Samples is the one I was looking for. It’s around 30 pages, so here are some snippets (bolding added; “CSA” is “child sexual abuse”, which refers to any sexual contact between adults and teenagers or children):
It’s really easy: go to nambla.org and read up. I suspect that a lot of what you are saying is similar (very similar) to a good portion of they are saying. Whether or not you’ll admit to that, I don’t know, but I wait with eager curiosity to hear why you do or do not agree with nambla, and to articulate why . . .
Others on this thread have brought up the parents being responsible for the minor child, should that child get pregant, get someone else pregnant, get an STD, etc. I know we’ve had this discussion before (exhaustively) and I’m not eager to engage in another full-blown discussion again, but I’d like to hear your well-thought-out, thorough, clearly defined solution to how a minor child can be “responsible” enough to make these decisions, without any (and I mean any) parental support for any of the consequences of their “mature” choices. I’m sure some of the others here would be interested in your answers to these questions as well.
Or, do you expect that the child will be mature enough to make the choice, but somehow not mature enough to deal with the consequences of the choice (therefore the parents would be obligated to deal with it)?
Would the courts who decide which kid is “mature” enough to engage in certain activities also insist that this “mature” kid be expected to bear the consequences of these “mature” activities? Or would the parents still be expected to be responsible? (For instance, supporting their minor child’s baby, even though the minor child was deemed to be “mature” enough to have sex.)
Also, how do you propose that the courts decide which kids are “responsible” enough and which aren’t? Who will pay for all the courts and fees and laws required to make this all work? I’m curious to hear some really thorough and specific theories about how you think it’ll work. Merely saying, “They courts can decide” or “there should be a law” isn’t really sufficient.
I have already gone around and around with you on this issue, so I’m hoping someone else (someone much smarter than me ;)) will pick up where I left off and pry some answers out of you on these issues.
yosemite. I’ve stated on another thread how there might be some answers by exploiting the emancipated minor legal status to differentiate between a sexually mature young adult deserving of amended rights, including consentual sex, and a sexually immature child. I hope we’re agreed there CAN be naturally developing, critical differences between two 15 year olds that would land one in one category and the other in the other.
As for who pays, the young adult seeking this legal status pays with whatever means s/he has at their disposal. Could be a trust fund, could be investments, could be a full-time job, could even be pro bono by the ACLU.
The vast majority of young adults don’t think to seek emanicpated minor legal status now, so amending the laws so that EMs can marry without parental permission and have sex probrably won’t change things much (says I, as I put my head on the chopping block.)
Aw, c’mon. It’s clear from the pics that she’s your typical shyte-for-brains white trash nympho ho’. And yes, in case I haven’t made it clear, she was incredibly stupid and irresponsible in doing what she did. It was not right to the school and the community. Anyone with half a neuron would know that this type of thing always becomes known and causes a scandal.
Some people are just looking for trouble–this was her method. But was the kid a victim? Hell no. Lucky, lucky SOB.
BTW, talk about killing the golden goose! The kid should have gotten much more poon before blabbing. Retard.
yosemite, if a court deems that a minor is mature enough to have sex, then likely his or her parents would not be legally obligated to take care of the child if she became pregnant. However, who takes care of the kid if two twelve year olds have sex? Neither of them are mature, but the parents often take care of it too. If some law were passed, the amount of hoops one would have to go through to allow legal “statutory” sex would likely limit the number of cases, similar to people allowing 14 year olds to be married, but it isn’t an epidemic.
