How does wanting to have experienced this “abuse” as you call it, make every male an abuser?
Wrong again. What kind of people do you hang out with that makes you think that being an abuser is accepted as normal male behavior?
How do you learn to have a meaningful relationship? By having relationships, being honest and forthright, and learning from experience. Parental relationships probably have a tremendous amount to do with it, yes. You live what you learn, and if you grow up in a stable, loving environment where your parents are emotionally open and show their children how much they (the parents) love each other, I would suspect the children to grow up along those same lines.
Are you going to go through some heartaches and make some relationship mistakes? Of course. I’m guessing that most people remember not to make the same mistake again the next time they’re in a relationship (I also know from personal experience that it may take a few times making the same mistake before you realize ‘Boy, I screwed up the last time I did this.’ No one’s perfect). A 14 year old boy hasn’t had the life experience to make any sort of informed decision about a sexual relationship with a mature woman.
The only exceptions I can think of are in adult education at the collegiate level, or GED night-courses in community centers, or adult education in prisons. At the ordinary university level this is still mostly taboo, although I know people who date their GED students with fewer consequences. I know of NO teacher who can date students without legal and professional consequences. I knew a freshman girl in college on an early admissions scholarship pursuing her degree in English Education – same age as her still-in-high-school boyfriend – who was basically told point blank by the head of our Division that she didn’t care how long she and her boyfriend had been dating, she needed to quit dating her boyfriend or get out of teaching. She got of teaching. (And later broke up with the boyfriend.)
And I can’t speak for female teachers who do this, but I know male teachers who get into serious relationships with former students will be gossiped about for a looOOoong time by colleagues in the teacher’s lounge, as well as other students. It’s a move I don’t recommend without also considering transferring to another school/school district.
Absoluetly in agreement here, with the added caveat that there are some bold-ass teenaged women in schools these days who can put you in a compromising position at the drop of a bra. You need to have an EXCELLENT relationship with your administrator to deal with ingenues.
Even this precaution, even if consistently done, sadly, will not be enough to ward off the investigation the school would have to initiate to test the validity of such claims. And we live in an age where young BOYS will make such claims too, which is why I don’t allow myself to be alone with any students while I’m working, and will not give students rides home unless there’s another adult in the car, and even though I’m in early childhood education I try to never, ever to even touch children below the shoulders unless I’m tying their shoes. Need help fixing your pants or zipping those zippers? Do it yourself or see my (female) assistant. I’m not the one.
Zagadka moves to clarify the provocative “all men are sexual predators and abusers” thing:
Now, that’s a statement with which I will agree. Unreservedly. To the point that it is difficult to actually function as a heterosexual male (at least until/unless you’re already in a relationship) if you are insufficiently thusly described. Link
But Zag, if you go around saying “all men are sexual predators” (as with any all x are y) you contribute to making it part of the definition rather than something that requires explication.
The people whose reaction was “yeah boy, go get 'em” might not be inclined to use the term ‘predators’, and even less the term ‘abusers’, but aside from that many of them come pretty close to agreeing with your “all men are like that” assertion, but having done so, go on to conclude on that basis that there can have been no harm done.
I would go further. I would say a 14-year-old boy hasn’t had the life experience to make any sort of informed decision about much of anything; and what’s maddening about 14-yer-olds is they’re convinced they do, and that anyone older than them who disagrees is an idiot. I think it finally sunk in what a complete moron I was as a teen, oh around age 30 or so, give or take a year. I had my first real sex at age 17, which was hopelessly late by my high-school’s standards. It was unprotected. My g.f., who would get bouts of amenorrhea when she did a lot of aerobic exercise. But we thought I slipped one past the goalie. On three separate occasions. So, after getting very close to having three separate nervous breakdowns because I thought I was going to be a 17-year-old father, I gave in to birth control. How stupid is that? Incredibly stupid. Was I scarred for life? No. Should I have known better? Yes. Did I learn my lesson eventually? Oh yeah.
Do kids need to do stupid things and really feel the consequences to eventually get it through their thick skulls that some risks are not worth taking? Well that’s the billion dollar question, isn’t it.
I’m not clear if we agree or disagree. How does one become a mature individual without personal experience, failure, and correction?
You don’t become a mature individual without personal experience, failure, and correction. That being said, as Loopydude pointed out, there’s a time to do the learning, and a time to say “I don’t think I’m ready to learn this lesson quite yet.” The lesson in this case could very well be wasted on the 14 year old boy.
Something I’ve noticed in this thread that has piqued my interest: the constant references to the teacher’s hotness. That seems irrelevant to me, but is it? Let’s suppose the kid got a piece of a fat teacher. Is it more abusive now? After all, the kid’s going to be embarrassed when everyone finds out, right?
I’m still waiting for Mr.2001 who says 13 years old is old enough to make a decision to have sex, which means he agrees with NAMBLA.
Well then I think we’re in complete agreement so far. But can we suggest it is wrong to do something because some people might do it incorrectly, or learn the wrong lessons? Is recidivism a good argument against imprisonment for the sake of rehabilitation, or proof that we are not aware of sufficiently universal facts? Apart from hyperbole, I don’t think anyone in this thread suggests that no 14 year old anywhere ever ever evar (;)) could successfully have a sexual relationship with another person their age or even an adult, rather that the overwhelming number of 14 year olds are simply incapable of handling the situation well.
So I guess the question is, is the only moral problem with the situation from the OP that she was a teacher rather than, say, a neighbor?
vanilla, what position is NAMBLA’s, exactly, that only they have which makes the comparison so worthy? Or are you pciking an inflammatory group on purpose to make a purely rhetorical point?
My first impulse (as a former 14-year-old boy) is to say “Go for it, dude!”
What gives me pause are the possibilities of pregnancy or the transmittal of venereal disease. (I’ve skimmed the thread but don’t see these issues mentioned.)
Seems to me that sex with a 23-year old entails a greater risk of VD than sex with another teenager. And maybe that wouldn’t be the first thing a 14-year-old boy would think about.
And what happens if the teacher gets pregnant? The 14-year-old could wind up stuck with a lifelong commitment.
I would say that any 14-year-old who is mature enough to recognize he shouldn’t have sex is probably mature enough to have sex. Catch 22.
The answer to this question depends on the kid, and if he can still get off with an obese woman. If he can get off (say he’s really desperate, or just into that) he’ll probably try to keep up the relationship until somebody gets caught.
If he’s a nice kid who isn’t into fat women, he will refuse the advances of the heavy teacher and discretely let someone know something inappropriate happened.
If he’s a mean kid, he’ll rat on the woman, but make sure she’s completely humiliated in the process, because she’s nothing but a fat ho’. He’d probably organize some kind of ambush where his buddies capture the act on film, and, after the vid. has reached every corner of the globe via the internet, his parents will plead he was a helpless victim.
In any eventuality, the woman gets destroyed, be she a real abuser or not. Heaven help her if she’s merely troubled, needy, lonely, and in need of professional aid.
Not necessarily. A fat teacher can still be pretty hot, if she otherwise looks good and has a flirtatious attitude. The teacher’s hotness becomes material because to absolve the kid of wrongdoing, we must assume the adult in question must be fine enough to override a teenager’s sense of caution and common sense.
The real question is: we know how hot the teacher is. Suppose the KID is a tubby blob? Do we roundly condemn the teacher further for picking out an ugly duckling? Do we congratulate the kid for having what must be one HELL of a charming personality? Do we suspect coercion because no woman that hot would willingly have sex with a kid 9 years her junior unless she compelled him to do it for sinsister purposes? Or do we temper our judgment if we somehow find out the 14-going-on-15, is tall for his age, sports body hair, has been sexually active for more than a year and looks like a young Adonis?
Pretty people have it made.
Actually, I think this question touches on a near-universal truth: If you want it, it’s an opportunity, and if you don’t, it’s harassment or abuse. Of course, that’s qualified by age-of-consent issues, and so forth, but I think from the age of consent on, the big X factor of all sexual advances is the consequence of context and receptivity.
This is what makes abuse and harassment issues so difficult to litigate, and why many empolyers have adopted zero-tolerance policies, for example, when harassment issues come up. If I start coming on to a female colleague, and she digs it, I’m home free. If I’m unattractive to her, and she’s repulsed by my advances, she could probably get me fired. Is it fair? No. Is it necessary? That I honestly don’t know. Probably it is.
The simple way to deal with this state of affairs is to simply never, ever try to come on to a coworker. Period. If you don’t meet people outside of work, get a life. The risks incurred by not looking beyond the coworker pool far outweigh the advantages of convenience.
This is, like, a hundred-billion times more true when it comes to student teacher relations. Clearly Ms. LaFave has got some serious issues. Nobody could be as stupid as her actions would require if she were not suffering from some form of paraphillia, so I’m guessing she’s going to need some serious counseling. After she loses her marriage, her job, serves jail time, changes her identity, and moves to Alaska.
It seems probative of the voluntariness of the boy’s consent.
Yep.
Heaven help her if she’s merely troubled, needy, lonely, and in need of professional aid.
So which category does LaFave fall under, Loop?
Apparently, the people at the SDMB, whose primary opinion of 14 year olds having sex with adults is “good job”
This is the single most insulting post I’ve come across in this thread. And hoo boy, that’s saying ALOT.
We generally set the bar at 18 years of age because that’s when society has decided that our parents may stop being responsible for our actions.
What if the 14 yr old contracted AIDS? What if the teacher ended up pregnant? You had SMOKING OMG SO HOT ACTION fantasies about adults in your youth, but just how prepared would you be if she sauntered up to you and whispered, “Let me shag you bareback”?
Honestly, if 14 yr old boys are willing to sell their mothers into slavery to get it on with a hot teacher, I’m pretty sure they’d be willing to forego protection.
Who is legally responsible for a resulting child? Who is legally responsible for the kids doctor bills if he does happen to catch something? That’s right. HIS PARENTS. So unless a 14 yr old wants to clear having sex with his or her parents, it’s probably not a good idea (Hello voice of experience).
And who’s to say that he didn’t fall head over heels for this teacher? My first serious boyfriend was 15 when we began dating (I was 14-15) and he would’ve given the moon if he could reach it. Kids can be starry-eyed at that age, anyone who says differently probably wasn’t actively dating at his age (And no, spanking it in the boys room to an OMG SO HOT teacher does not qualify as “actively dating”).
What I’m more interested in is wtf is wrong with this teacher? She’s obviously attractive and apparently just recently married. What is so mis-wired in her brain that she would seek out a 14 yr old who MIGHT be able to keep himself from busting nut before she so much as breathed on his zipper? Where’s the interest? If she wanted casual sex, why wouldn’t she go pick up a good looking guy with a little experience under his belt? Something’s not adding up.
I don’t know if I believe she deserves to go to prison, but I definitely think she should be undergoing mandatory therapy and be registered as a sex offender.