Maybe I’m missing something here. I think that it is OK to not be physically attracted to a short man. I also think it is OK for a man to not be physically attracted to what he perceives to be a big gal.
So what’s the big deal. One can’t help what one finds physically attractive. It is neither silly not superficial to desire a tall man. The same can be said for a man who desires a woman who is 5’4" and weighs 135lbs.
I am a woman who prefers a tall man to a shorter man. I also prefer a man who’s muscular. I also prefer a man who’s not obese. These are the physical qualities I find attractive. I am also 5’4" and I wear a size 10 or 12. I’m not everyone’s cuppa tea. I understand that and get on with life.
I must disagree with the assertion of numerous posters to this thread that people who reject potential partners based on their physical shortcomings are shallow, silly, idiots etc. Physical attraction is an inherent part of people’s psychological makeup, and is no reflection whatsoever on their mental abilities or maturity. What is true is that to use only physical attraction as criteria is very silly. Furthermore to insist on unrealistic levels of physical attractiveness is also silly. In both these instances, a person is making foolish decisions. But there are alot of people of varying heights in this country, and a person who finds a certain height more attractive and decides to hold out for that height is not necessarily lacking in the slightest mental capacity.
I got the impression that the original issue was not that elmwood was dating women he didn’t like but found physically attractive, but that he did not find some women attractive even though he liked them and his female friends criticized him for this. I think it would be just as stupid and potentially hurtful for someone to date someone whom they emphatically did not find attractive, but thought they should. You can only talk yourself into attraction for so long and it is not going to make your SO of 6 months or 6 years happy to hear you say, “I’m sorry, you’re a great person, but I’m just not attracted to you.” How many mercy fucks do you do before you trot out that line? There is more substance to a lasting relationship than looks. But I know that my spouse is interested in what I look like, and I know that I’m interested in what they look like. We keep in shape for each other. To be blunt, part of the reason we started seeing each other (in the 1980s) was that we were physically attracted to each other. I had friends; this person inspired desires to do The Forbidden Monkey Dance.
I have mixed feelings about calling people who base attraction on a set of physical characteristics superficial. My immediate reaction is yes, it’s stupid to get hung up on physical appearance that can and will change and we should only be concerned with essentials like personality. OTOH, anyone who’s monosexual is using the same blinders, aren’t they? Using that logic, a gay man or a straight woman who isn’t finding happiness in dating men should ignore their attraction to men in hopes that they can find happiness with a woman. Won’t work very long, will it? Is a woman who’s more sexually attracted to women than men more superficial than a woman who finds blond men most attractive? So the lesbian can’t help it. Can the woman who likes blond hair?
All that said, I suspect that elmwood may be looking too hard for this supposedly society-wide double standard. So you found some people who evidently believe in it. So other people here know people who do not. Which pool are you going to draw from to decide which way “society” thinks?
I’ll just throw in my lot with those who say it’s NOT silly, shallow, or superficial to have physical preferences in datees. It just IS. Elmwood, your friends are being silly & obviously not representative of the entire population.
I doubt most of us choose our friends on the basis of looks. But most of us surely have some physical criteria preferable - or even mandatory - in those we are going to have as romantic partners. That’s just the way it is. Walk around a mall or airport…there are plenty of short/fat/plain/tall/disabled/anorexic people out there who get partnered.
I would dispute your original premise, in other words.
I’ve noticed the phenomenon mentioned in the OP. I don’t think it’s a society-wide thing. I think it’s a reaction to a society-wide thing, though.
If you’re an American woman, you’re being told twenty times a day that the only way to be beautiful is to be thin. Most straight men in our society prefer thin women. Some women who are not thin are getting pissed off about this. (These are the people who will call you a jerk if you tell them, e.g. in a personal ad, that you prefer thin women.) In my experience, most of these women know how it feels to be rejected for one physical attribute and tend to make a much greater effort to not reject others in the same way. But, I have known some who make statements much like you complained about, talking about how much they prefer taller men, men who aren’t bald, etc. My theory is that, after being rejected by men, it’s satisfying to have the power of choice, and to be the one to criticize for once. It’s hypocritical, but it’s also pretty natural.
My advice is to call specific individuals on it, when they make statements about short guys. Point out their hypocrisy. Talking about it here is pretty pointless, since I think people who do this are a small minority, and not the sort of riff-raff we allow on these boards.
(You also complained about flames when placing personal ads with a size preference. I think it’s quite reasonable to have a physical preference, but it’s nice to be as tactful as possible when stating it. The word “fit” is a good one, IMO. Very few people will complain about you wanting a partner who is in good shape. I’m sure eventually women will come up with a sensitive tactful way to say “not short, not bald”.)
I think you have answered your original question: “Why is it okay…?” The squeaky wheel gets the grease in our society, and men don’t have their own movement the way women do. (Though as some feminists get louder and more vocal we are moving closer to an organized male backlash all the time).
In general, women get away with all kinds of things in relationships that men cannot. The fact is that women (I’ll talking about the average relationship) have more power in relationships than men do. They have more power legally when a marriage dissolves too. Is this outrageous? Hell yeah! That’s why I say we need a “masculinist” organization equivalent to the N.O.W.
As for the whole “size” issue…big women are in luck around me. I’m 6’4", 300 pounds, and I happen to prefer a larger chest. I’ve found that larger (natural) chests don’t really occur much on smaller women. My average girlfriend over the last 6 years has weighed about 175 pounds.
I disagree completely that society does not think it is “ok” for you to reject me. In fact, I think society pounds it into your head that you should, and that if you don’t, there is something fundamentally wrong with you.
I have never had a problem getting laid. And I usually get high marks for my sexual, um, ability. But I have definitely had some difficulty with men who had no issues with fucking me but BIG issues with being SEEN with me.
If you are sincerely unable to be attracted to a fat woman, that’s fine. I wouldn’t have sex with me, either. (I adore my honey twice as much as I would anyway, just because he is so beyond all that and calls me beautiful. And he does not prefer heavy women. He’s so good…) But hear me, guys: if you can happily have sex with a fat woman but you don’t want people to KNOW, then you are a shallow asshole and I hope you fall madly in love with the skinny woman of your dreams and she promptly gains 150 pounds right after you get married. And then dumps you and takes all your money.
You might want to work on changing your attitude if you can, though, Elmwood, since there’s a fair chance any woman you hook up with is likely to get a little tubby at some point in her life. Especially if you two have kids and stay together into old age.
Stoid - are the planets out of alignment? Something is out of whack! Because I want to give you a “high five” and a “bravo” for that post. It is so often true. Men who prefer larger women (or who are attracted to all kinds of women, including large women) are often treated as if something is wrong with them. A fat chick by their side isn’t the “trophy” that other people think it should be, so these guys get ragged for it.
Podkane- since when do the movies mirror real life? A freind of mine worked for a very expensive & exclusive introduction service. She did not the preference for guys- ie “no fat chaicks”. However, most women did not specify “looks” as an important criteria- when filling out the “matchmaking” criteria. However, after they met, all were supposed to fill out a card telling why they did or did not like the othere. Almost every single woman listed some part of personal appearance as why she did not want to see the guy again. Less than half the men did similar. Women pick their men more by looks than any other factor- they just do not admit it.
Giraffe- MOST men do NOT like or want THIN women. My group of guys all despise the anorexic look. Not one of us thinks Callista is “sexy”. We like medium women, with curvy figures, or med-large women with VERY curvy figures. Think more like Nikki Cox, raquel Welch or Cindy Margolis. Sure- none of these are “fat” in any sense of the word- but they are not “thin” either.
My SO is “zaftig”- ie. heavy but very curvy. “Ideal physical type”? No, but just fine with me.
Many women prefer taller men because it gives them a sense of being safe or protected. That’s not to say that a short man can’t protect his wife/g-friend, it has more to do with what makes someone feel comfortable. My boyfriend is taller than me, and I wouldn’t have it any other way, because that’s what makes me feel comfortable, and that is what I like. How can you say that that someone is shallow because they prefer a certain type of person? That’s ridiculous!
If a man does not want to date a heavier woman, why is it anyones business. He shouldn’t compromise cause it makes someone mad!
Someone said earlier that people who narrow their choices may miss out on the love of their life, not true, there are way to many people in the world!
Boy, Elmwood, 5’10" is considered short for a guy out in Colorado!?! I was tempted to move out there, but I guess at just under 5’5", I wouldn’t stand a chance with all those fit skiing, mountain-biking women I’ve been dreaming of! Bummer!!!
Anyway, I basically have to side with those who say that there is little one can do about what one finds attractive and what one doesn’t, so you just gotta live with the fact that life isn’t fair in this regard. I do try to challenge myself on this point, but I can’t honestly say that I find it likely that I will be able to convince myself to find someone attractive if I just don’t. And, sometimes I don’t even know why I don’t find them attractive … I can always come up with reasons unrelated to looks. But, are these the real reasons or just excuses?!? Who the hell knows!
Also, I think the whole double standard thing kind of cuts both ways, which is why people in this thread can successfully argue it one way or the other depending on the examples they cite. For example, the fact that women seem to currently have a little more free reign to specify a height criterion in personal ads than guys do to specify a weight criterion (or a chest size criterion, or whatever) is a reaction to what some women here have pointed out: That traditionally in our society, a much higher premium / standard has been placed on women to be youthful, slim, and attractive than on men. In the movies (and maybe in real life?) men like James Bond can make up for a lack of youthful attractiveness by the sort of “virility” that comes with being suave and powerful and driving fancy cars, something that seems to not be nearly so true for women.
Perhaps this is sort of analogous to the reason why those in minority groups may have somewhat freer reign to say racially-charged things than those in majority groups. Is it completely fair? No, probably not if looked at in isolation. But, then in other ways, things are even less fair for members of these minorities.
The one thing I do agree with you on though is that women who do have a height criterion for the men they date do not have very good grounds to criticize men for having physical standards for the women they date. But, in practice, I can’t say I have actually come across any women who have held this double standard.
P.S.-- JerseyDiamond, your explanation of why you want to be with a taller guy is almost word-for-word the explanation that I have heard from a woman friend I have here. And my guess is that it is probably some mix of the societally-imposed gender roles and the hard-wired preferences from evolution that incline some (many?) women in this regard.
As a short guy, I have to admit to a certain frustration that these feelings exist. But, hey, the world ain’t fair and I really can’t hold it against anyone that it ain’t.
I’m surprised that so far no one has mentioned that many men like being taller than the women they date. A tall woman might express a preference for men even taller than she is not because she genuinely finds taller men more attractive, but because she fears that a shorter man would reject her. I had some very tall (over 6’) female friends in high school who I know did not have any problem with dating guys shorter than they were. However, this was rarely an issue because most shorter guys didn’t want to have anything to do with them. Even women who are not so very tall might run into this same problem. I can understand why a woman who had experienced this might specify in her personal ad that she was looking for a taller man. It might exclude openminded short men, but would save the woman the embarassment of seeing her date’s face fall when he realizes he has to look up at her.
Well, that obviously wouldn’t apply when a man who is shorter approaches a taller woman.
As both tall and obese, I dislike being with shorter men because it makes me feel * even bigger *, like some kind of she-hulk. Strangely, though, I prefer skinny guys. While I won’t reject a beefy man, I find very thin men more attractive. It is also easier to be with them physically for me. Two extra-large people in one space tends to be very awkward and difficult to maneuver when yer getting intimate. Lucky me that the man I’ll be spending the rest of my life is tall and very thin. Very. He could use a pound or two. Maybe five. Ok, ok, he’s the human Q-tip. But a nicely defined human Q-tip.
I think this is a very good point. My boyfriend and I are virtually the same height (he has maybe 1" on my 5’6") and it bothers him a bit when I’m in heels. Then again, he’s said wouldn’t want to date someone under 5’3" or so. Talk about limiting yourself.
I myself have been historically attracted to more tall men (6’ or over) but haven’t excluded anyone based on that - I think I’ve run the height gamut. Tall men just catch my eye faster. However, I know plenty of men who flat-out will not date a heavier woman, period, no matter any of her other attributes. In fact, a certain shitheaded ex of mine expressed disgust and anger because my normal size 4 expanded to a size 8 (oh no!) when I had a bout with uterine fibroids. His actual comment: “If the doctors don’t figure out how to fix it, then you’re going on a diet.” I’m not going to use him as the basis of a generalization - as this thread attests, there are plenty of men who aren’t nearly so shallow - but I think it’s indicative of a common mindset amongst men. And as someone said before, men who like heavier women are viewed as desperate or freaks - some guys I’ve known (not biblically) call hooking up with a big girl just for sex “hogging”. No women in my acquaintance have any such term for hooking up with a short guy. Just an observation.
Or perhaps I misread the OP. It is true that one cannot control the “type” of person one is most often attracted to. What I was reacting to in the OP (in addition to the double standard) was the idea of rejecting large portions of humanity from consideration because they do not meet a particular objective physical standard. That is shallow, superficial, and silly. Personal attraction is not so easy to reduce. I have had lovers that were not even close to my “ideal standard”, that I did not feel particularly attracted to upon first meeting, but for whom I developed a deep and passionate attraction over time. [sub]To avoid confusions: we became lovers after I developed the atraction. (Well, most of the time.)[/sub]
People are attractive, not measurements. Refusing to consider a person because the measurement is not ideal is undoubtedly superficial, probably silly, and definitively shallow. I do not find women with very large breasts attractive as a “rule”, but I find some particular women with large breasts very attractive.
If you live in a large city with public transportation, you don’t have to have a car. Especially if you live in a city where a parking space starts at $100 a month. (not to mention the environmental benefits of not having a car). And the only reason you need a drivers license is so that you have ID to get into a bar.
If you “gotta have a car”, then how did I meet and marry the love of my life, or is it that she has no self esteem.
I got so fired up that I forgot to answer the OP. I think the whole argument is ridiculous. You are only going to go out with people you are attracted to. Anybody that has tried to do anything other than this knows that it doesn’t work. I’m not talking about a drunken fling, but dating. You are always going to look at them and think, “I’m not attracted to them”. You can’t force it, that’s not to say that something can’t develop over time. There is nothing shallow about not being attracted to someone. how many people do you see everyday that you don’t like physically (heavy, light, tall, short, ugly, etc.).
Adroit footwork, but still no go. People can learn from their experience. A person does not go into a resteurant and reconsider every single item on the menu, if he has already learned that he dislikes certain foods. A person who has over the years (and I imagine that it might not take too long) discovered that he (or she) likes or dislikes certain body types is not being foolish or shallow in applying that experience in judging prospects.
Yeah, and? What, I should like pickles even though they don’t taste good to me? Come on. I like both women who are either shorter than me or taller than me. I like women who are just on the side of pudgy, though the “athletic” look is ok too. Why is this superficial? I don’t like stupid women either, I’d like them to have an intelligence comparable to mine (if we were talking IQ, which I’m not, it’d prolly be +/- 10 points of mine). Am I automatically wrong? I also like them to be responsible. Am I being an evil pig for excluding whole classes of people like this? She should have many common interests with me. Uh-oh! Superiority complex!
Really, you like who and what you like for whatever reasons you see fit. I think it more superficial to yell “Superficial!!!” than to merely admit what one finds attractive.
Because I want to give you a “high five” and a “bravo” for that post. It is so often true. Men who prefer larger women (or who are attracted to all kinds of women, including large women) are often treated as if something is wrong with them. A fat chick by their side isn’t the “trophy” that other people think it should be, so these guys get ragged for it.