Get his helmet off and Juggy’s quite vulnerable to psychic attacks.
What in the world are you babbling about?
Plenty of things stop the Juggernaut: Mental blasts, the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak, and so on.
But what does that have to do with anything in my post and how is it “convienient”?
Like I said, buddy: Deep cleansing breaths. Just repeat to yourself “It’s just a funnybook.”
Fenris
QUOTE]*Originally posted by Alphagene *
**The point is Hulkie is not going to stay still long enough to inhale whatever sleepytime gass Batsie tosses at him. Let’s move on.
Not I didn’t and I mad no such admission. Professor Hulk’s got about 50 IQ points on our Dark Knight. But even one of the dumber Hulks has a strong enough desire for self-perservation not to stand with his head in a chemical fog taking deep breaths. So the gas knock-out plan is still a bust.
**
[/QUOTE]
And to add to Alpha’s already excellent points:
#1) Hulk can hold his breath for a Looooong time. We know he can hold his breath longer than the Thing and the Thing can hold it for quite a while.
#2) How’s Batman gonna get anywhere near the Hulk? Even the pissed-off Superbaby version of the Hulk (“Me SMASH puny Banner”) is bright enough to do the “Clap hands to make a shockwave” stunt, which can knock the Thing back. It’d blow Bats into the next county.
#3) And anyway, if it was that easy to take out the Hulk (1 or 2 CCs of knockout gas), don’t you think Thunderbolt Ross…or hell, Reed Richards would’ve figured it out decades ago?
The only reason it worked in the Batman/Hulk tabloid edition is cause the writers cheated in Batman’s favor (the early DC/Marvel teamups were political tug-of-wars. As I understand it, of the four original team ups (Superman/Spiderman, Batman/Hulk, Superman/Spiderman II and X-Men/Teen Titans), only the X-Men’s creators were given any sort of real creative freedom. The rest were pretty heavily “scorecarded” so neither hero was percieved as “better” than the other.)
In any case, unless Batman can hit as hard as the Thing (and if he can, why isn’t he throwing tanks around?), there’s absolutely no way that Batman could hit the Hulk hard enough to make him gasp.
Fenris.
Whatever happened to Lady Shiva?
Marc
Quoth Alphagene:
That’s only eleven matchups… Are you missing one?
What I really wonder about, though, is most of those folks are heros. Doesn’t it take rather a bit of convoluted storytelling to get them all to fight? And for that matter, how are such crossovers arranged? Alternate dimensions, I suppose?
I thought there was an Iron Man/Someone (Steel?) fight.
As for the story…heh convoluted only begins to touch it.
There were these Cosmic Dudes who looked like gigantic refugees from TRON, one red, one blue. ANYway, one lived in Marvel’s dimension, one in DC’s. They noticed each other for the first time for some reason and tried to fight. They were too balanced and so gave powers to some guy. Then he or they made the heroes fight for their dimensions. Or something. I don’t remember the plot all that well.
The plot was so-so but it was fun to watch everyone meet.
And except for maybe the Batman/Cap thing and certainly the Storm/Wonder Woman one, I think the results of the fan votes make sense.
Footnotin’ Fenris
And once again my nemesis Alphagene has used his mutant power of fast typing to get a response in while I’m still typing.
CURSE YOU, ALPHAGENE! SOMEDAY I WILL GET BATMAN TO COME AND BEAT YOU AT YOUR OWN GAME!
Fenris and his Fingers of Fury
People, people. Don’t fight amongst yourselves. Keep in mind you all have one thing in common:
YOUR A BUNCH OF #@$%ING NERDS!!!
Anyway, just to contribute.
Batman vs Daredevil= Batman.
Superman vs Hulk= Do you really honestly think Hulk has a chance? Your kidding yourselves. But knowing the improbability of comic books, I guess it could happen.
Batman vs Hulk= Ok Batman has his resources. On the other hand HULK IS A BIG GREEN SACK OF THROBING PAIN WAITING TO BE REALEASED ON A FOOLISH MORTAL. In other worlds Hulk wins. But the “waiting until he turns back to his normal self” is a interesting idea. Still Hulk wins.
Lets face is, Batman is cool. However he can’t stand up to these crazy super human characters. I still think Batman is one of the coolest super heros ever.
Wearia
Alright, how about the following:
Batman, Spider-Man, The Hulk and Superman working together VS. The Saint Of Killers?
My bet is on the Saint.
Well, seeing as everyone’s picking on him, what about a bout between Batman and Midnighter? Midnighter’s supposedly a knock off of the ol’ Dark Knight, so what if they met?
Personally, I’d say Midnighter. One, unless he goes announcing it (which he generally does for the sake of "We have to explain everything to the reader), there’s really no way Batman could figure out that his fighting abilities come from a little computer type gismo that runs thousands of battle scenarios through his mind per second, allowing him to determine what action to take. That, and Midnighter’s not averse to punching his fist threw someone’s skull.
As for Superman vs. Hulk…if it came down to “Fist on Fist,” there’s no doubt in my mind the Hulk would clobber Supes into the ground. I don’t know much about Superman, but from what I understand, he’s no longer capable of punching planets into cinder, so I’m sure his strength is fairly comparable. But his heat beams shouldn’t be able to do shit. I remember in one Hulk comic, the green bastard was burned down to the bone by some evil opponent, and in a matter of seconds, he was back to his old self. Now, there could have been more magic involved in the book, but anyone with THAT level of healing capabilities wouldn’t be terribly offset by a few pokes by heat vision. We’ve seen Superman get bludgeoned into unconsciousness, so the likelyhood of the Hulk being able to accomplish such a feat isn’t beyond my grasp. He held up a fucking mountain, for Christ’s sake.
And pretty much anyone versus the Saint of Killers is a match already pre-determined. To reiterate a point already made:
HE KILLED GOD!!!
Batman Vs Saint of Killers
His pair of six-guns never need reloading, never miss, and the bullets will punch through ANYTHING…even an M-1 tank.
Saint’s invulnerability is absolute…his reaction to a nuclear bomb dropped on him is to spit tabaccy juice.
Say Bats goads Saint to shoot him:
Saint runs up and sees Bats standing at the edge of the cliff.
Saint shoots…but onlyhits a balloon decoy.
Batman’s superior intellect has tricked Saint to fire the bullet into a sub-orbital trajectory, completely transversing the Earth’s circumference, ending with the Saint getting nailed in the back.
If the Saint can kill anybody, then that includes himself.
I’m sure that by the time the bullet went around the world, the Saint would have realized it was a balloon Batman and left the scene.
What about the Green Lantern vs. The Doctor from the Authority (okay, I don’t read that many comics anymore, give me a break). I know GLs ring can pretty much create anything he wants, but the Doctor can recreate time and matter by pure thought.
What about overall teams: FF vs JLA? X-Men vs. The Authority? The Sinister Six vs. the Legion of Doom?
Oh geez, these one on one battles are usually “take a guess” but trying to pit whole teams is just pointless, unless there is a huge disparity in power level.
The way I see it…Superman’s easy(ish) to kill. I can name 3 people right off the top of my head who could do it: Martian Manhunter (telepathy, shapeshifting AND superstrong/fast? Superman would be gone).
Black Adam: Hell, Marvel almost did in “Kingdom Come” and Adam’s had his powers for a much longer time than either of them. Plus, he’s an ex-villian, so he’s likely cheat a lot. Magic + Superman= dead Superman (does anyone know why this is? Is it a loophole the writers made?)
Ultraman: Evil Superman. Maybe…ok, I just needed three, I don’t know if he could. Maybe.
Batman: given enough time, he could take pretty much anyone. In a “sudden death cage match” almost any superperson would turn him to paste. Hell, Aquaman could kill him with a punch.
From what I recollect, currently the top three martial artists in the DC universe are Lady Shiva, yuong Green Arrow (Conner, right?) and the new Batgirl (Beat Shiva one on one). I don’t really agree that Batman was madse unbeatable, he just happens to have one hell of an extensive database on metahumans, and given enough time can whip up a way to defeat almost anyone.
Batman vs Hulk: Well, Batman knows several nerve strikes, as well as the vibrating palm, so…OK, just kidding. But by comparison, he did beat the cheesy Hulk ripoff Blockbuster with the help of some knockout grenades…and Starman.
Bats makes a great general. He gets more accomplished leading superhumans than just trying to beat a cosmic threat by himself.
I’d LOVE to see the Avengers take on the JLA! I know Perez was gonna do the crossover, but the last I heard, it got shelved.
I actually think Dr Doom could take Darkseid, given the prep time.
Fenris,
I agree with you, for the most part, especially in the context of his own books.
However, as the top human Superhero in comicdom, and possibly the most willful character, Batman becomes the focus of many “what if?” type scenearios. Basically, if a human with enough will, intelligence, and resources (and Batman was all three in spades) can triumph over a given super, Batman will be the one most likely to actually pull it off. Now, your sceneario is unwinnable, but it’s fun to think of ways a mortal man can beat, say, Superman (make some Kryptonite), the Hulk (talk him down, use hypnosis if necessary), or, say, the Saint of Killers (whom I’m unfamilar with, but he sounds unbeatable by definition), and the Batman is a natural choice for such scenarios.
It also gives him something to do when he is out with the Justice League because he’s just too cool a character to waste.
So, yes. Batman has human limits. But if a human could triumph in a given sceneario, Batman inevitably will (with time to prepare, gather special equipment, and choose the battleground, if he runs into the Hulk one day on patrol in Gotham, and chooses to stand and fight, instead of luring him away from people and talking him down, and then sedating Banner, then he’s toast).
And, even in a “random encounter” scenario, I say he beats Daredevil 2 falls out of 3 and Captain America 3 falls out of 5.
Spider-Man wins 5 of 7, with Batman taking 3 of 6 if he’s allowed to retreat and regroup (but not put together an incredibly intricate trap, like he did against Superman in DKR).
Midnighter sounds like Prometheus, a character that actually did manage to beat Batman (along with almost the rest of the JLA) during Morrison’s run. Batman lost round one to his superior skills, but replaced the information in Prometheus’ battle computer with Stephen Hawking’s bio-info the next time they met. I’d predict similar results for Midnighter.
As for Marvel vs. DC, I was disappointed by the Superboy/Spider-Man battle. Spider-Man would win, no doubt about it, but the Kid’s powers were tailor-made to escape from webbing. Plus, a nose-dive into live transfromers would kill this Superboy, as his powers are supposedly written (to be fair, nobody’s been very consistent with this weakness).
I think this may be one of the best summation of Batman I’ve ever read.
**
The problem that I had with Grant Morrison’s Batman (as much fun as it was to read) is that somehow, in your Hulk scenario or my unbeatable scenario, Batman would somehow have been prepared. And I don’t buy it. Or like it. Batman should not have “The writer cheats in his favor” as his super-power.
**
Hmmm…giving odds? I like that.
Here’s my take:
vs 60’s Daredevil, Daredevil wins 2 falls outta 3
vs 80’s Daredevil, Bats wins 2 falls outta three
vs Captain America, tie: “on any given day”
vs Spider-Man…hard to say, as Spider-Man’s spider-sense should make him a lot tougher, but writers keep ignoring it. Given that, I’d say Bats squeeks out a win just because of greater training…but juuuuust barely. Maybe 4 falls outta 5 (and if you wanted to argue the other way, I could easily be convinced.)
Fenris
I think this may be one of the best summation of Batman I’ve ever read.
**
The problem that I had with Grant Morrison’s Batman (as much fun as it was to read) is that somehow, in your Hulk scenario or my unbeatable scenario, Batman would somehow have been prepared. And I don’t buy it. Or like it. Batman should not have “The writer cheats in his favor” as his super-power.
**
Hmmm…giving odds? I like that.
Here’s my take:
vs 60’s Daredevil, Daredevil wins 2 falls outta 3
vs 80’s Daredevil, Bats wins 2 falls outta three
vs Captain America, tie: “on any given day”
vs Spider-Man…hard to say, as Spider-Man’s spider-sense should make him a lot tougher, but writers keep ignoring it. Given that, I’d say Bats squeeks out a win just because of greater training…but juuuuust barely. Maybe 4 falls outta 5 (and if you wanted to argue the other way, I could easily be convinced.)
Fenris
I double posted to show how either Madrox the Multiple Man and Duo Damsel could beat Batman.
I hope this settles the issue.
Fenris