Oklahoma Couple Kills Puppy, Tans Hide

Nope. The crime is that the crazy person attacked an innocent pet for another idiot’s crimes. That’s like pulling up someone’s garden because they piss you off, or smacking their kid around because the adult did something stupid. Punishing a random entity for the crimes, perceived or real, of an identified entity is wrong.

The use of a carcass to make a belt is a totally separate issue. If you have killed something, use it properly. That’s a matter of respect. The only exception, in my opinion, is that you don’t eat or use your own kind. Humans don’t eat humans; dogs don’t eat dogs. I would not agree with rendering a human’s fat for soap, or a human’s bones for glue. That’s a squick factor on my part, though. I’m not accusing humans of being horrid glue.

Hand to god I don’t mean to be a dick by asking this question, but have you ever killed your meal or watched it be slaughtered? There’s a world of difference between believing in hunting and hunting.

Does Bessie the pet cow really know the difference from being Bessie the cow raised to be slaughtered and turned into 1/4 pounders and steaks? I agree that this couple were sick fucks, but if they’d killed the ex-lovers pet cow and turned it into a belt do you really think it would have even hit the media or resulted in criminal charges? For that matter, what if this were to happen in Korea, for example, where dogs are considered food animals?

As for not being killed respectfully or the youth of an animal - well do you think baby seal hunters or those raising cattle for veal should be charged with felony cruelty to animals? For that matter, how exactly does one ‘respectfully’ kill? Does a steel bolt to the brain cut it? A bullet to the brain? Being clubbed in the head so as not to damage the fur? Was this couple’s real crime being horrible shots and taking 10 bullets to do what they should have with one?

Ever hear of mad cow disease? Want to guess where it came from? Feeding cows to cows.

A more apt analogy would be:

  1. You shoot and kill a deer
  2. You shoot and kill a deer, and skin it
  3. You shoot and kill a deer 20 times, and skin it

Heh. I saw a pile of frozen puppies in the freezer case at WalMart the other day. Different people have different ideas about what animals are important. Many Indian Hindus would be shocked and saddened to see how much beef we consume. Does that make us depraved?

To lighten things up, I’ll tell a pretty funny and true story about skinning pets (stay with me!)

I had an American friend in Cameroon who kept a pet cat. Given the living conditions, it was by necessity an outdoor animal. Unfortunately, in her area cats were considered to be delicious food animals (indeed, I’d often see restaurants with “chat tigre” proudly advertised as the daily special.) But she kept a collar around her cat and made sure the neighbors knew that her cat was not up for grabs.

My friend took a vacation. Before she left, she politely asked all of her neighbors not to eat her cat while she was away.

When she returned, she wasn’t all that surprised when her cat didn’t come running for her. It turned out that one of the neighbor families could not resist the temptation. She was, understandably, a bit angry. The family apologized, saying they just couldn’t resist not eating such a juicy animal roaming around like that.

“You really shouldn’t be angry.” they said, handing her something wrapped in a plastic bag. “We just got hungry. And besides, we saved you the skin!”

They were fed it mixed in their food by people . They did not attack and kill other cows.

I think it’s a little disingenuous for some to act as if they don’t get the outrage. Unless you’re not living in the West, or are simply playing Devil’s advocate. Or maybe you just like being all hardcore and pointing out perceived hypocrisy because man, you’re just so much more honest and evenhanded than the rest of us.

Look, it’s simply a fact that in the U.S. and many other countries, particularly but not limited to the West, there’s a caste system for non-human living creatures. Right or wrong, we tend to look on creatures with varying degrees of human munificence and act accordingly. Going from lowest to highest level, I’d guess the list looks something like:

  1. Bacteria
  2. Insects and vermin (mice, rats, etc.)
  3. Fish and reptiles
  4. Domesticated animals raised for food/clothing/other materials
  5. Wild animals and birds
  6. Horses
  7. Dogs and cats

Most of us (not including myself because I’m kind of a freak) have no problem whatsoever in killing groups 7 and 6 ourselves. Group 5 is commonly killed for both sport and eating, and 4 is so common it’s industrialized. But the latter is where people start to balk, which is why you have vegetarians (excluding of course the veggies who avoid meat for health reasons, less for their ethics).

I originally switched groups 3 and 4, but on thinking about it, there are actual laws against killing wildlife, and we have certain rules even for those wild animals who are deemed fair game (literally). I also think many of us who regularly eat meat will eschew killing a wild deer or swan or bear, even though all of these can be eaten. Birds are in an unusual position; many kids with BB guns will shoot at birds, and of course they’re hunted and eaten. But there’s something special about birds; they fly, they sometimes seem to many to be too lovely and musical and ethereal to kill. It’s a sin to kill a mockingbird, as Atticus Finch said. (But he didn’t have a problem with killing Blue Jays.)

Next are horses. I put them in their own category because we have a special relationship with them. (And no, I don’t mean that way! :D) We have a long history with horses; they are ridden and pampered and have served us for generations and generations. They are extremely expensive to own and are feted for racing feats. Some people eat horse meat, and they have other uses (presumably still including glue?), but in general, I think much of society looks on the horse as too valuable, perhaps (on an unconscious level) even too noble, to kill lightly.

And finally, we have dogs and cats. Other animals are pets, of course: guinea pigs, goldfish, mice, birds, rabbits. But they have nothing on dogs and cats for us. Millions and millions of us live with them and take them into our homes, we care for them, we cuddle them, we get to know their quirks and recognize their body language as much as possible; above all, we love them and many even believe they love us back, in their way. Sure, it may be a version of the ‘pathetic fallacy’ but that belief is still extraordinarily strong to many who’ve felt a fuzzy head suddenly come up to nuzzle us when we’re low. There’s pretty much only one reason and method for killing them that’s considered appropriate by most of us: if they’re very ill and suffering. Even then, most of us don’t put a bullet in their heads: we give them a gentle injection and let them fall asleep. And many of us grieve for our lost friends.

I think killing a dog or cat for any other reason feels like a betrayal of the unspoken pact we made when we let these animals into our homes. Sure, in the end, they’re animals like all the rest and so an absolutist may think, “what the hell’s the difference? you’re a hypocrite if you don’t equate Fido with cows!” But it is different for our culture, and those who ignore that difference seem rather cold (if they’re just defending the practice) or – in the case of the freaks in the OP – outright nutters.

I agree with your caste idea, except that I’d put horses on the same level as dogs & cats, and drop wild animals below domesticated ones. But my only problem with the outrage isn’t the notion that the people who did this to the puppy are criminals; it’s the remark in the OP saying that what they did was WORSE than animal cruelty. That seems silly to me; it’s explicitly animal cruelty. To me, the referenced statement seemed to wish to elevate the suffering of the puppy to an assault against a human.

Or maybe we’re offended by what we see as a potentially serious miscarriage of justice. You just posted a remarkably complete and cogent description of a concept that I think everyone already understood. Really, no one here’s genuinely confused at the concept of sentimentalizing cats and dogs. I’ve owned three of each in my life. I love pets. I’d be beyond pissed if someone harmed my dog. But it is, at its heart, a property crime. And in this story, the dog in question was the property of the person who killed it. Therefore, there should be no crime here.

Now, I’m not dismissing animal cruelty laws out of hand. Someone who tortures an animal simply for the fun of it is disturbed, and we’d be foolish, as a society, to ignore a warning sign like that: all too often, such people graduate from torturing animals to torturing people. If the couple in the OP deliberately shot the puppy to wound nine times, and then finished it off with the tenth shot, then I don’t have a problem with prosecuting them. If they were trying to kill it with one shot, but were too incompetent to deliver a fatal bullet the first nine times, they should not be imprisoned, although perhaps someone should look into revoking their gun licenses, because they’re clearly too dumb to safely handle a firearm. And, in what seems like the most likely scenario, if they killed it with the first shot, then shot the body nine more times, ‘cause hey! Shootin’ guns is fun! then who gives a shit about this at all? They had a dog they no longer wanted, and decided to destroy it themselves rather than pay someone else to do it for them. Everything after that is emotional porn, designed to whip folks up into a nice frothy emotional outrage over a non-story. Which is great, if that’s the sort of thing you’re in to, except that people are talking about ruining two people’s lives (and, from one of our more spectacularly stupid posters, ending their lives) because they violated not an ethical or moral code, but a arbitrary social taboo. And I think it’s very bad justice indeed to imprison people because of society’s squick factor.

Skald – I agree, most of the list distinctions were a crapshoot judgment on my part. I think the distinction between horse and cat/dog is that well, we feed horses to dogs, so they get a different tier. :slight_smile:

Miller – those advocating a criminal punishment do not see pets as mere property. Yes, of course we own them, but these are living, breathing, feeling creatures to whom many believe we have a responsibility. I just don’t think the distinction between “ethical/moral code” and “arbitrary social taboo” is nearly as clear as you seem to think it is.

Stephe96 is a Neanderthal anyway, so to save our sanity, let’s leave what he is pleased to call his ‘thoughts’ out of this. For the record, I certainly wouldn’t end their lives; I don’t believe in the death penalty for killing humans, so it’d be ridiculous for me to advocate it for killing animals. But some jail time? Yeah, I’m down with that. If that’s equivalent to “ruining two lives,” so be it. We do the same for people caught with a batch of marijuana, and no living creature died as a result of it. If it’s not yet codified into law that killing dogs and cats for reasons other than euthenasia is wrong, well, maybe this’ll be a test case. Clearly many disagree with this notion. I agree it’s a fine line. But my heart and mind tell me that it is not right to treat animals like mere disposable objects, and maybe enough members of our society may agree to consider this worthy of a law. Maybe not. But it’s not cut and dry, is what I’m saying.

Maybe it’s just that I grew up on a farm, but I quite honestly don’t look at treatment of categories 1 though 4 at all differently. Anyone who does is irrationally projecting cultural baggage onto cases that are actually no different from one another.

Of course, people (including myself) do this all the time in virtually every sphere of life. So I don’t have any problem with people having different emotional responses to similar actions when one involves a pet and another involves a mass-produced farm animal. But I do have a problem with the legal system imposing different penalties for them.

If you believe you have a special responsibility to your dog, that’s fine. The problem is where you think that someone disagreeing with you deserves to go to jail. If shooting a puppy is going to be a crime, I think it’s incumbent on you to first, describe what social good is gained by locking up people who kill puppies, then differentiate between killing a puppy and killing any other kind of animal. After all, what non-arbitrary distinction can you create between a pig and a puppy? Why is one a living, breathing, feeling creature to whom we have a responsibility, and the other a plate of bacon? If you can’t show a clear difference between the two, then all you’re doing here is criminalizing someone for defying social convention. Which is something I have a very large problem with.

I saw the thread title while still trying to wake up this morning. I thought it said Obama, not Oklahoma, and thought, “Oh, what now?” I’m almost disappointed it wasn’t.

Ignorance caught.

This is a “tug at the heartstrings” story. That’s all.

I have had to euthanize several of my pets–including a goat only a few days old. I have also raised my own cattle for meat. Although I haven’t actually killed my cattle personally, I did participate in the process. And when I hit a deer with my truck, breaking its back, I shot it in the head so it wouldn’t suffer.

Does that make me evil? Should I be fined $25,000 and thrown in jail?

No? Then it must be about the hide. I have many rancher friends who have kept the hides of cattle they’ve killed for food. Right now I’m wearing leather boots and a leather belt. There’s a taxidermist right down the street from here.

Are these folks evil? Should they be fined and/or jailed?

If this story was about a cow, rabbit, sheep, guinea pig, or goat, it wouldn’t even be a story.

If the puppy had been a 10-year-old dog, the level of outrage would drop ten notches.

Personally, I wouldn’t shoot a puppy and skin it. But I simply don’t understand the level of outrage some of you show.

Since you didn’t (and won’t) read the article or the OP, your opinion is moot. And you’re a twit for even posting in a thread without reading the OP. And you probably smell funny.

When your parent die ,I bet you can get a pair of moccasins out of that.

No, that isn’t all. Apparently, the sheriff believes they are felons. And a judge (or magistrate) agrees, having set a $25,000 bail. Another judge (or perhaps the same one) believes that they need mental health evaluation. All of this in Muskogee Oklahoma, where, presumably, folks are generally practical about livestock and such.

Is there anything other than social convention that prohibits me from stripping naked and jerking off (Into a condom. Safe sex and all that.) on my deck in clear view of the neighbors who are having a birthday party for the kids? Should that be legal? How about laws against playing loud music? Not all societies prohibit that. So that must be simply social convention as well. Or using my urban backyard as a pig farm? Why not? In some places it would be no problem. Would you want one next door?

I don’t agree with every law on the books. But if a society collectively agrees that certain behavior is prohibited, that is not necessarily invalid “just because.”

Yes, actually, it is. The fact that there’s an actual law against this, and people willing to enforce it, does not change that. It is, in fact, the only reason this law exists in the first place. Had it been a less adorable animal that was being turned into a belt, this would not be an issue.

No, I’d say the laws against all of those, except maybe the first, are for practical concerns, and really have nothing at all to do with social conventions. Playing loud music late at night is going to have a tangible effect on the quality of life of your neighbors. A pig farm not only brings the noise issue, it also involves a lot of stench, and pollution. Now, you’re getting close with public nudity - what parts of the body are okay to show, and what parts aren’t, is a pretty arbitrary decision. I’d call that a social convention, and I don’t have any deep attachment to public decency laws. I’ll admit, jerking off in public (condom or not) crosses a line for me, and I’m not sure what exactly makes that different from simply being nude in public. I’ll have to think about that, some.

Now, the difference between your examples, and the one in the OP, is that killing this puppy has no direct effect on anyone else. They weren’t running a puppy slaughterhouse in their backyard. They killed one dog, once, in what I expect was a fairly quick fashion (it does not take a great deal of time to fire ten bullets, even accounting for a re-load or two). I can appreciate the neighbors not liking what these people did. But living next door to creepy assholes is not, in and of itself, a sufficient decrease to one’s standard of living that you’re justified in sicking the law on them.

Is it wrong that I can read Silence of the Lambs and the exploits of serial killers without cringing but that story really kind of upset me?

I’m not so sure, but I admit I don’t know. I suspect, however, that killing a cow by riddling it with bullets, and then nailing it’s hide to your kitchen wall, would be met with a similar response, so at least part of the deal is how it was done, not simply what was done.

Nevertheless, some societies do not prohibit such behavior, so such prohibitions must be based on social convention.

No reason to use loaded language. There’s nothing sick about it at all.:wink:

People who would do such a thing, probably took time to enjoy killing the dog. Anyone could kill a dog with one shot. They just shot it in the non vital spots until they got bored. Wonder if it was dead when they stripped the flesh off?