On Hetero-normative Dating: The Woman Makes the First Move

[Moriarty]

@Telemark

But that’s a tautology. There’s no relationship to examine if both parties don’t indicate interest.

The question is how did the relationship originate. Man and woman meet. Will they date?

Traditionally, the story is that, if the man is interested, he asks the woman out and she says yes or no .

Lately, though, as the MeToo movement has gained traction, there seem to be all of these guys freaking out about not being able to date anymore. They’re worried that their propositions will be considered harassment.

I’m saying that the traditional narrative is flawed. If you are the man, look for the woman giving you a sign that she is inviting the flirtations/propositions. Because I think that’s how a successful proposition is distinct from the harassment they fear.

[P-man]

I was always oblivious to those overtures, unless it was like this:

Me: mention to a group that I have a motorcycle
Woman in the group: can I have a ride sometime?
Me: sure, anytime
Her: how about tomorrow?

Anything less obvious and I wouldn’t have gotten it. Fortunately, we got married so I never had to deal with deciphering signals or lack thereof.

[Robot_Arm]

@Moriarty

What move is that? A sign that says that she is open to being propositioned by the man.

I’m not sure that counts as a “move”. I interpret that term to mean something more overt, and which can be actively (not just passively) rejected.

However, if merely indicating interest in some subtle way counts as a move, who’s to say that it’s always the woman who does it first. Maybe the guy sought her out at a party, mentioned his ex-girlfriend, or did something to prompt her to indicate that she was interested. I suspect you’re seeing this because you decided to look for it.

[don_t_ask]

@Moriarty

I’m saying that the traditional narrative is flawed. If you are the man, look for the woman giving you a sign that she is inviting the flirtations/propositions. Because I think that’s how a successful proposition is distinct from the harassment they fear.

I don’t think it has ever been anything but that. First, you get a signal that the woman even wants you to introduce yourself, then you get signals that either she wants to continue interacting or that you are annoying/boring her. Men famously fail to interpret these signals properly and give up when they were going fine or keep going when they are really being asked to stop.

[msmith537]

@don_t_ask

I don’t think it has ever been anything but that. First, you get a signal that the woman even wants you to introduce yourself, then you get signals that either she wants to continue interacting or that you are annoying/boring her. Men famously fail to interpret these signals properly and give up when they were going fine or keep going when they are really being asked to stop.

Well it’s not as if women give off unambiguous signals. A lot of times “go away” looks an awful lot like “try harder stupid”.

[Cheesesteak]

@Robot_Arm

I’m not sure that counts as a “move”.

You should be sure, because that’s not a move. It’s complete passivity, looking at you, having dilated pupils, smiling. Intentional ambiguity? C’mon

These bullshit ‘moves’, if Moriarty is accurate, are part and parcel to why men:

• Fail to notice when women are interested
• Fail to notice when women are disinterested
• Put the moves, real moves, on every woman who isn’t actively frenching someone
  We live in an era now where sexual misconduct is out front as a major issue in male/female relations, and women still want to play the coquettish dance of being happily ambiguous as to their desires? Oh, and it’s the man’s job to interpret signals that are both subtle and ambiguous, that could be both a signal of interest or a signal of nothing.

[Helena330]

@msmith537

Well it’s not as if women give off unambiguous signals. A lot of times “go away” looks an awful lot like “try harder stupid”.

When in doubt, err on the side of “go away”. It’s quite a bit more likely that’s the signal being given.

[Telemark]

@Moriarty

Traditionally, the story is that, if the man is interested, he asks the woman out and she says yes or no .

Lately, though, as the MeToo movement has gained traction, there seem to be all of these guys freaking out about not being able to date anymore. They’re worried that their propositions will be considered harassment.

Not really, no. It’s always been men and women looking for signs of mutual interest; sometimes waiting for the sign, sometimes not, and sometimes reading whatever signals are given completely wrong. Men (and women) have always had the possibility of harassing someone by presenting themselves inappropriately, from a position of power, or in a threatening manner. What seems to have changed is they’re getting called out on it. It’s always been this sort of dance.

[VinylTurnip]

@Cheesesteak

We live in an era now where sexual misconduct is out front as a major issue in male/female relations, and women still want to play the coquettish dance of being happily ambiguous as to their desires? Oh, and it’s the man’s job to interpret signals that are both subtle and ambiguous, that could be both a signal of interest or a signal of nothing.

The flummoxed would-be suitor in this scenario can settle the matter decisively by looking the woman dead in the eye and snarling “DO YOU LIKE ME OR NOT?”

[Esprise_Me]

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as women communicating nonverbally or playing games or otherwise being too subtle for men to get it.

Part of it is that men are socialized to make the first move, and women are socialized to let them; you can’t be rejected if you don’t try, so men tend to experience the brunt of romantic rejection. But expanding this beyond hetero hookups, I’m sure we can all think of gender-swapped or same-sex interactions where one person has failed to pick up what the other was putting down. Some men who seem to feel women owe them an explicit declaration of their romantic intentions or lack thereof nevertheless understand that their boss or prospective employer, or their friends and acquaintances, can communicate rejection through silence or other signals, and it’s on them to get it without needing it spelled out. It’s not a “coquettish dance” not to be called back for a second interview, or for someone to always be too busy to get coffee with you (but not too busy to get coffee with someone else); it’s mostly when a woman does it to a man who finds her attractive that it’s described in such negative terms.

Part of it is also that some men–not all, but too many if you ask me–feel entitled to a “yes” from a woman and simply refuse to accept a “no.” When the “no” is subtle enough to spare his dignity, he doesn’t hear it. When it’s unmistakable and explicit, he lashes out. There is no right way to say it to make such a person respect it, so women have to decide how to safely wriggle out of the situation. Of course, we aren’t mind-readers either, so we can’t always tell the entitled jerks from the truly dense, and we don’t owe it to either group to stick around and find out for sure. Those who find these interactions too difficult or frustrating are welcome to opt out by not hitting on anyone.

[P-man]

I pretty much did give up on trying. “No” was always my default assumption, so anything other than a direct “yes” was taken as such. There were a couple of times that I found out later that someone was trying to get my attention and I was oblivious (the second time we did end up dating for a while). Maybe several women thought that I just wasn’t interested and moved on; Ms. P thinks it happened a lot, but I don’t know. My awkwardness in social situations couldn’t have been much of a turn-on. Since she didn’t dilly-dally, and I’d had a few beers, she didn’t really get to see me at my worst. I admitted to her after we’d been together a while that it was hard for me to call her the first time; I had experienced people giving out their number and still saying no when I asked them out.

[peccavi]

@Cheesesteak

…We live in an era now where sexual misconduct is out front as a major issue in male/female relations, and women still want to play the coquettish dance of being happily ambiguous as to their desires? Oh, and it’s the man’s job to interpret signals that are both subtle and ambiguous, that could be both a signal of interest or a signal of nothing.

Oh, there’s an asymmetry of roles, but not necessarily the one you’re describing:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them” - Margaret Atwood

[HelenGawn]

@Moriarty

What move is that? A sign that says that she is open to being *propositioned *by the man.

I am firmly convinced that lots of the concerns that men have about being accused of rapeyness, and lots of frustrations that women have with unwanted advances, come from a failure to understand this simple maxim…

Sorry, but the word emphasized above shows the same failure to understand IMHO. A woman displaying those signs is interested in continuing the conversation. She may want to see if her interest continues and possibly morphs into more than intellectual. She may be interested in sex very, very soon. Or she may just be interested in the topic.

This is all predicated on my understanding of the word “proposition.” To me that means a clear invitation to sex. As always, YMMV.

[EdelweissPirate]

A few years ago, I was in the OP’s position. Since then, I’ve had a really successful dating life. That’s not because I’m god’s gift to women, but rather because I have both a job and a pulse. The bar for men is very low, and any man who actually pays attention to what women say and do is already ahead of the game (IME, anyway).

@Moriarty

But, I am a keen observer of people.

This bodes well!

@Moriarty

And I have a theory: in any meeting between a man and a woman which successfully leads to a relationship (no matter how long that may be), the woman makes the first move.

Nope. From where I sit, your theory is neither true nor false but simply a little outdated. Online dating has changed this calculus tremendously. You can chat and build a rapport prior to meeting, so “the move” of asking someone out tends to be more mutual than it is in person.

Here are some signs that indicate (to me) that a woman would like to meet in person:

1. She says so (this is the trivial case, but it happens quite a bit).

2. She asks to switch from whatever app you’re using to text. Switching to text involves sharing a phone number, so that’s an escalation of intimacy/interest. It’s a risk for a woman to share her phone number with someone she hasn’t met, so if she asks to switch to text, she’s indicating that she’s interested enough to take that risk.

In my experience, even modern, strong, independent women often prefer that men ask them out. (Naturally, some strong, independent women feel otherwise. Everyone gets to like what they like. Many women explicitly state their preference in their profiles).

But if you’re already chatting with a woman and have switched to text at her request, she is inviting you to invite her out. See? This is more straightforward than some men claim it is.

As for not being a “lothario” or a creep, #metoo is certainly relevant. But non-creepiness is way easier to achieve than some men seem to think. And while few women want to date a creep, men in the grips of creepiness-avoiding paralysis aren’t very attractive either. Happily, it’s not difficult to strike a reasonable balance. Here are some tips that have served me well:

0. Use online dating apps. For men concerned about non-rapiness, Bumble is especially good, partly because that app requires women to initiate the conversation. If she’s done that, she is exhibiting some baseline level of interest. Plus, you won’t waste time chatting up someone who seems attractive but who (for example) holds political positions you find odious.

1. Assume that no server/barista/hostess is ever hitting on you. Flirting is how people in the service industry pay the rent. Just assume that, however well they flirt, their only interest is in doing a good job.

2. Listen to what women say to you, verbally and otherwise. Is she initiating more contact? Is she lingering a bit at the end of your first date? These are both good signs.

3. Respect what women say to you. Did she pull away when you leaned in to kiss her?Well, back off and say “I think I misread some signals. I’m sorry.” A creep isn’t a guy who leans in for a kiss and gets it wrong. A creep is a guy who leans in for a kiss and doesn’t care whether he got it wrong.

4. Take the occasional risk, as long as it’s respectful. In my experience, very few women expect men to anticipate their every desire. If you think now is the time to lean in for a kiss (or to ask for another date or whatever), go for it. If you were mistaken, backing off will only build trust. If she knows she can trust you to stop when she says stop, she can relax and have fun. You want your date to feel relaxed and to enjoy herself!

5. One risk you should never take: sending a photo of your bits. Just don’t do it. Don’t even ask her if she wants to see a photo like that. The few women who are actively interested in seeing such a photo will ask for it directly.

6. Put yourself in her shoes. Early in my post-divorce dating career, I was staying in a hotel and arranged (via an app) to meet a woman at the bar downstairs. I got there first and ordered a drink to sip while I waited. It occurred to me to order one for her too, but then I stopped myself: she was meeting a strange man at a hotel bar; she needed to see the bartender mix her drink so she’d know it was unadulterated.

7. Practice, practice, practice! Go on lots of dates. Go out with women who seem interesting, even if they don’t suit you in every single way. Going on lots of dates means that, eventually, you won’t be overinvested in the outcome of any particular date. You will come across as less nervous and more relaxed—both attractive traits.

8. Use your words to say what you’re thinking. Are things ambiguous? Are you getting mixed signals? Well, say that you’re a little confused and ask how she feels. I learned in high school that this is a terrible idea, but boy howdy, was that wrong! I’ve never had a woman respond badly to that, and the women I’ve dated have told me that they read such questions from men as a sign of emotional intelligence, maturity and confidence.

9. Use your words to learn what she’s thinking: if you’re making out and you’d like to do more than kiss, ask explicitly for consent. The response you’re looking for is enthusiastic consent. Seeking enthusiastic consent might sound deeply unsexy, but I was delighted to learn that most women really like it. It’s basically the opposite of incorporating whipped cream into sex, which sounds like it could be hot but just isn’t.

You’ll make mistakes as you (re-)learn how to date. Own them and do your best to learn from them. Chances are, you’ll be forgiven. If you’re not, just say you’re sorry—and mean it—and be willing to walk away without animosity or poutiness.

Some women “play weird games” with men they’ve just met, it’s true. But IMHO, men who think this is common or complain that #metoo somehow “broke” dating are making excuses for being flummoxed by three-dimensional women. Smart, interesting women can smell this a mile off. The corollary is that those women are also attuned to earnest decency and are pretty reasonable about giving the benefit of the doubt to guys who’ve shown they deserve it.

Simply remember that, like you, women are human beings. Treat them accordingly. That may sound glib, but it really is that simple.

P.S. Special bonus tip: if you’d like to meet a woman you’ve been chatting with, consider volunteering some identifying information about yourself. I’ll often disclose my last name and my employer, and other information that my prospective date can cross-reference. IME, most women who are cagey about their own details are cagey with good reason—stalking ex-boyfriend, high-profile job, ongoing ugly divorce, etc. Most men who are cagey about these things are married or otherwise cheating, or maybe afraid of a Google search that would reveal a history of domestic violence or something. Many, many women Google their prospective dates prior to meeting, which is just smart (IMHO).

You don’t have to be overt about this…maybe just mention how your boss in the accounting department at CompanyCo wants to be called Ms. Smith, but that’s fine because she addresses you as Mr. Jones, which seems fair (or something like that). You’ve disclosed your last name, your field and your employer, so now your prospective date can find you on LinkedIn. Women who appreciate this information will notice that you disclosed it for sure. Meanwhile, it may not even register with women who don’t care or who already know they can trust you.

[EdelweissPirate]

@peccavi

Oh, there’s an asymmetry of roles, but not necessarily the one you’re describing:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them” - Margaret Atwood

Yeah. This.

[Esprise_Me]

Flummoxed hetero men, do as EdelweissPirate says. That is solid advice.

With respect to the accusations of game-playing, it’s also worth mentioning that most men are not explicit in their approach, so it’s a bit rich to expect explicitness in return. If “can I buy you a drink?” is supposed to mean “I’m interested in you sexually,” why can’t “no thanks, I’m driving” stand in for “nah, don’t wanna see you naked?” This is still one of my favorite Savage Love columns:

The Stranger: Seattle's Only Newspaper

(3) Why do women do this? Well, there are a few reasons.

Some young women accept back rubs from men they have no intention of sleeping with because they have a hard time saying no. Girls are socialized to be agreeable and perky, and don’t want to give their new dormmates the impression they’re bitches or, worse yet, dykes. Offering an inexperienced young woman a “friendly” back rub puts her in an extremely awkward position. If you asked her honestly for sex, she would probably give you an honest answer: no. But when you ask dishonestly for sex (by offering a back rub), don’t complain when you get a dishonest answer. You offered a back rub, and who doesn’t want a back rub? By not being honest (“I’ll trade you a back rub for some sex, howzaboutit?”), you and your friends are essentially manipulating young women into quasi-sexual situations they may not be entirely comfortable with. Which isn’t a very gentlemanly thing to do, is it?

[EdelweissPirate]

As Eprise Me has surely deduced, I’m a huge fan of Dan Savage and most of what I wrote above is paraphrased from his column and podcast. I went on at length mostly to illustrate that I’ve applied his advice and it has totally worked for me.

And by “worked” I don’t mean I get laid at will or that I have never been hurt or rejected. Rather, I mean I’ve had a healthy, happy and vigorous dating life while remaining friends with most of my exes. I think that’s the most anyone could hope for.

[P-man]

I’m sure EdelweissPirate’s advice is solid. But it also looks difficult for some folks. If someone had given me the same advice when I was single (minus the stuff about dating apps, since I was married before the turn of the millenium) I probably would have had a lot of trouble implementing it myself. For many of us, it’s a lot more complicated than it looks. It often keeps us out of the gene pool, which may be a good thing. I unfortunately passed my social anxiety on to our oldest, but he’s being treated for it. The younger had (and still has) a semi-serious girl friend by his second semester of college, so it looks like he escaped the worst of it.

[Melbourne]

The stuff about social media is interesting. I too am to old to know that, which means my experience is out of date. One of my house-mates came to me to complain about one of my friends. He’d invited her out. She told me that in her experience, no bloke ever made a pass at a girl unless she had clearly expressed interest.

Well, whatever: what was interesting to me was that she clearly had no idea that for many of my friends, they had only observed from the outside: they had no idea that there was a difference between girls that expressed an interest in you, and girls that didn’t express an interest in you, because no girl had ever expressed any interest.

There wasn’t anything wrong with these guys: we were in a social situation where we didn’t meet many women, and nobody was giving them lessons.

[Esprise_Me]

Not sure how social anxiety would prevent a guy from following either Moriarty’s or EdelweissPirate’s advice not to bother women who aren’t interested. I get being so paralyzed by fear you can’t approach anyone ever, but surely having some guidance as to which women are less likely to reject you only helps. Also, you know that social anxiety is not just a guy thing, right? As nervous as it makes you to interact with strangers, imagine you woke up one day in a pretty girl’s body and suddenly all these much larger, older men won’t leave you alone and you have no idea how to handle it. That’s puberty for a lot of girls, and nobody’s giving them lessons, either.