On Hetero-normative Dating: The Woman Makes the First Move

In My Humble Opinion
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I’m recently separated from my wife of 9 years, and I’m not yet dating again, so none of this is meant to be boastful. While I’m reasonably good looking, I’ve never been a lothario. There are guys who always have a girlfriend; I’m not that guy.

But, I am a keen observer of people. And I have a theory: in any meeting between a man and a woman which successfully leads to a relationship (no matter how long that may be), the woman makes the first move.

What move is that? A sign that says that she is open to being propositioned by the man.

I am firmly convinced that lots of the concerns that men have about being accused of rapeyness, and lots of frustrations that women have with unwanted advances, come from a failure to understand this simple maxim.

Men: If you want to be successful at ‘picking up a woman’, she first has to indicate to you that she wants to be picked up.

Of course, the ‘move’ is usually very subtle, sometimes intentionally ambiguous, and almost never overt. But it is there, and if a man wants any degree of success in dating/intimacy, he has to learn to find it.

I’m not saying it’s an easy task: women are clearly not uniform; people all have different moves they use. But I am certain that a man will always strike out with a woman who did not first make a move. Because men are not the initiators; women are. They decide that they are interested, and then it’s on the man to reciprocate.

What sort of moves am I talking about? They come in the form of smiles, touches, laughs, biting the lip while staring you up and down (my favorite!), casuaal references (“my ex-boyfriend”)….as I said, nothing is necessarily uniform.

And, it must be emphasized, one person’s ‘move’ may just be another person’s personality (so, the girl who is always laughing isn’t interested in you because she laughed at your jokes; a woman who is touchy feely isn’t making a move because she touched your arm).

But the theory, I think, is valid: If you are a guy looking to meet a woman, or a guy at all concerned that your flirting is ‘creepy’, you need to positively identify some sign that the woman is giving off that tells you that she wants you to approach her or broach the subject of dating. And it should be a sign unique to you (not just a general flirty personality).

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nm

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Apparently it stopped you this time.

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:slight_smile:

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If your opening conversation lasts more than two minutes then your up to bat. Your following conversations should just flow, you open up, she opens up and at that point you should enquire about dating and if she sees herself dating you. Full stop, either its yes or its not going to happen and you should exit out of the conversation at some point. But as to your question, her pushing the conversation is usually your first sign.

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Every woman I’ve been in a serious relationship with made the “first move”.

I’ve never taken notice of a woman that laughs at my jokes, is “touchy feely”, or “bites her lip”.

Personally I just focus on her words. Like these exchanges from past relationships:

Met my ex at a bar. We’ve talked previously at said neighborhood bar. But never flirted before this exchange:

Me: My friends and I are going to the other bar down the road.

Her: Fine! Be that way! :slight_smile:

Me: Well, would you like to come with?

Another GF. We were coworkers. Apparently she saw me driving out of the parking lot on my motorcycle. The next day at work she told me I looked “cute”. She went on to invite me to have lunch with her that day.

Another: I guess I had too many buttons buttoned up on my shirt, because mid-conversation, she took it upon herself to unbutton the top button of my shirt, with a bit of a catty smile while she did it.
Also, and I’m well aware I’m probably going to get raked over the coals for saying this. If a woman ever says to you: “I’m gonna set you up with one of my friends”. That means SHE wants you for herself. Especially if she’s married. I’ve had two experiences that lead me to believe this.

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Even better if you can note that her eyes are dilated while she is talking to you. But, yes, I agree that a conversation where the woman is very interested in what the man is talking about is a possible sign of interest in a more romantic engagement (again with the caveat that some signs in some people are just normal or typical in another person; are you paying her to listen to you? Is she an extreme extrovert? Then, yeah, maybe her rapt attention isn’t as fruitful as you may be hoping).

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This would be the catch-22. If the guy wants there to be a go-ahead sign, he is going to interpret any sign as the go-ahead sign.

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I agree that if you’re a man who thinks he is doing very well on the pickup, most likely it was engineered/signalled by a woman/small team of women, in ways that you won’t know until much later (if ever).

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And he’s going to be the ‘creep’, get embarrassed, be told off, or otherwise strike out unless he learns to look for the specific indicators.

(I raised this caveat thinking specifically of waitresses - they are paid to be flirty; the waitress who puts her hand on your shoulder, calls you ‘hun’, gives you a big smile and a wink is not being flirty. Something has to happen that is above and beyond, or fundamentally different, then her ‘normal’ behavior, at least within the context of the interaction (such as writing her name and number on your bill). Customer service people are friendly because they have to.)

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Hold a gaze for a few more seconds than would be normal socially. You’ll know pretty quickly where you stand, and you don’t cross over into assault territory.

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From what I can tell, a lot of guys at the gym think it’s a positive sign when they’re talking to a woman and she has her arms crossed and a bored look on her face.

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I’m not sure if I agree with your premise, but I very much appreciate the fact that you understand and acknowledge that “women” are not a monolithic group.

So yeah, let me tell you about my EX-boyfriend…

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I’d be interested in hearing more about your opinion of my premise; could a guy hit on you successfully if you just went out to the store to pick up something quick, weren’t feeling cute or flirty, and weren’t looking to meet somebody?

I was wondering what sort of pushback I’d get. There are guys who sleep with tons of women, who are constantly initiating encounters. But, those guys get rejected all the time, too; they just don’t care (“it’s just a numbers game,” a guy once told me, “If I ask out 100 women and get rejected 80 times, I still have 20 dates.”). That explains why they appear to succeed even though they are not discriminating among different women or looking for signs. I think these are also the guys who are getting in trouble (or freaked out about the prospect of getting in trouble) as women claim more empowerment, by the way.

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I agree with your general premise if we are talking about “indicators of interest” as a first “move.” In my own personal life, I would extend this to include any initiation of contact/dating/“dating.” This is my experience going back to some time in the mid-90s.

Fun fact: I’m a 40 year-old hetero man and I’ve never “asked a woman out” or directly propositioned/hit on her. I have turned down a few and dated a few others, but never initiated. I think maybe I made some “first moves” by making eye contact or subtle gestures but then I just chilled out. Certainly not good-looking and I have bad social anxiety.

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I don’t know if it’s true of all, or most, hetero dating or not. I know it is totally true for me, and I have zero interest in playing some game designed to disguise that fact.

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I’m not sure the woman always has to make the first move, but yes, a man’s approach should be a low-key overture accompanied by careful observation of her response and willingness to accept even a non-verbal “no.”

I had a fun rebound fling after the end of my last serious relationship before I met my husband. I was alone in a bar, having just collected the last of my stuff from our shared apartment, when a guy leaned in and made a crack about dudes hiding their baldness under baseball caps. It wasn’t any kind of genius opener, but he seemed friendly and cute and I was in the mood for someone to show me I still had it going on. So I smiled, laughed a little harder than the joke was funny, turned my body toward him, and made an even lamer joke in return. On other occasions when I’ve been approached and not been in the mood (or just not been available), I give a quick, tight smile and turn back to whatever I was doing-- talking to my friend, watching TV, scrolling on my phone, studying the drink menu. The smart ones take the hint and leave me alone; most guys aren’t that smart. Body language is really not that difficult.

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Yes, that’s exactly what I’m talking about.

A woman must first indicate her interest in you before you will succeed at trying to date/sleep with her, even if it’s just a smile or a gaze.

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This is amazingly true.

Decades after my high school graduation, my twin sister enlightened me as to the myriad little ways her friends and she set up situations to their benefit in getting dates with the guys in whom they were interested.

Including me, apparently. I was not aware that my breakup with C, who I really liked, and my subsequent dating of T (including the senior prom) were all engineered, brilliantly, by this cabal. Or coven. Or whatever you want to call them.

Before anyone strings me up, please realize that this was a zillion years ago, and I have nothing but fond memories of everyone involved, and I, along with everyone else involved, were a bunch of teenage idiots in those day.

And, hey, I’m sorry, C – it should have been you at the prom with me. But you didn’t miss much.

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But that’s a tautology. There’s no relationship to examine if both parties don’t indicate interest. The same is true for a man in any relationship, or any two people of the same gender.