I’m truly surprised that you would consider any option that did not include keeping her away from you, including pursuing a restraining order.
People like this do not deserve, under any circumstances, to be treated as normal members of society. Whether she is severely emotionally disturbed, a drunk, or just crazy, doesn’t excuse her behavior. You described someone who is a danger to everyone around her, including her child. Here in the USA we tend to put those types of people away, either in a hospital or in jail. Let the courts decide. Just don’t be around her anymore.
jeredc1983, I’ll just point out that Oakminster practices family law for a living, and his advice is probably the most authoritative that you’re going to get around here.
Just as a hypothetical, what would happen if jeredc1983 filed a corrected report with the police? Would he or his wife be likely to get in trouble, considering that their original statement was made in front of a violent person? Would her parole be likely to be revoked?
I’m guessing that charging her with the incident wouild require testifying against her, but that revoking parole might have different requirements. What would happen if the corrected report went not to the local police, but to her parole office?
It takes a village, and sometimes that means a villager needs to step up. This is obviously a family in crisis. I can’t tell you what the future holds, but crises tend to get worse before they get better. What would I do if I were you? I don’t know. CPS has a pretty terrible reputation in my state and I wouldn’t want to make the call based on one incident, especially one where alcohol, and possibly meds you’re not aware of interacting with alcohol, was involved. So what do you do? You could call up John and say that you really enjoyed spending time with him and Maria(the daughter) and you’d like to schedule a playdate for them to come visit, either as a family or you could go visit them for a day. Kind of take on a cool uncle role, both to get a better feel for what may need to be done, and to give the kids some time away from what may be happening at home and a positive role model in their lives. John is probably desperate for a friend/confidant at this point as well. Keep alcohol well off the table and observe. You don’t have to singlehandedly stop the sinking of the Titanic, but a lifeline for a member or two of the family to remind them that life doesn’t have to be like this can do wonders. Yes it will mean a time and relationship commitment, yes it will be inconvenient and possibly expensive, perhaps even dangerous, but what worth doing isn’t? There are some who look at the horrors of mental illness or addiction(probation orders forbidding alcohol don’t come out of nowhere) and shy away, and that’s fine. Everyone has to choose their battles in life. Maybe this is one where you call in the authorities, maybe it’s one you choose to get involved in personally. Or do something else, there’s a whole spectrum of possibilities.
Whatever you choose, discuss it with your family and make sure you are willing to see it through. Calling CPS will get you involved, albeit in a different way, and increasing your exposure to their family will also. Doing nothing also has a cost. You didn’t mention if you have any children, or if they were witness to any of this. In my case we’d be having a family discussion involving the kids and talking through our options. We’ve kept deliberate ties with families having issues in the past because one of the worst things that can happen to someone suffering from addiction/mental illness is being isolated, but that decision isn’t an easy one. Whatever you do I hope it brings you peace and that all the members of your friend’s family come through this alright.
This is basically what I was going to say. Call child protective services. PLEASE. This is a horrifying situation for these two children to be raised in.
First: The daughter that is 8 years old is from a previous relationship is not related to John in any other way than him being her moms boyfriend. The youngest (3-4 months) is his. John works on the road an is only home on weekends, so he isn’t in the house much; many weekends he is only there Saturday night.
Second: My wife is a former juvenile office who has worked extensively here with CPS in our state. CPS is not going to come in and save the day, I promise you that. They won’t remove the child from the home as there is no direct threat to her. Us presenting to them that she was drunk in front of her child is not evidence enough to prove neglect or abuse otherwise.
Third: People are pleading with me to do the right thing here and contact somebody. It does not work like that people. I will try to have a conversation with John and urge him to get out of the relationship and support him if feels he needs to take those steps. Once again, however, this is not a family that I am extremely close with. I believe there are many people here who believe CPS is far more powerful and/or benevolent than they actually are. I cannot see what the benefit would be other than putting it on the radar.
More than likely I’ll be flamed for this in some way or another, but it isn’t apathy or fear that keeps me from hotlining them, but rather the reality of the situation.
You may get flamed, but you are absolutely correct. CPS will do nothing. To be fair, there isn’t much they can do anyway. The father has already shown he was willing to lie to law enforcement to protect the mother from facing any consequences for abusing him, so what makes anyone think he will change his tune when CPS shows up at his door, especially if he thinks there is any chance he could lose custody of his child? (Many people think CPS swoops in and removes children from the home at the drop of a hat.)
BUT…And this is a big but, your wife is a mandated reporter. So I would report it anyway, just on the priciple of CYA. If anything happens to these kids in the future your wife could face criminal charges and lose her career. In my state all that would happen would be that the report would be taken and assigned to a caseworker to meet the 24 hour mandate and most likely (99.999% likely) the case would be quickly unfounded. The only repurcussion to this would of course be that your friend would know that you and your wife reported the incident and he and his wife would likely be very angry.
Isn’t there still a large world between “CPS swoops in and takes the kids away” and “CPS stops by, looks around, and does nothing” here? Don’t they provide access to resources like parenting classes?
Let’s get this straight: the woman has damaged the OP’s property and attacked the boyfriend twice that we know of (stab wound, broken collarbone) but there’s absolutely nothing CPS would do? No snark: what else would have to happen for them to be able to do something, whatever that “something” might be?
She lives with her mother and the two children; the mother owns her home in a St. Louis suburb that is a nice place to live. If they stop by and look around it is going to do nothing but cause resentment towards me for snooping in their life. I know that her actions allow me to call CPS with a relative sense of being right, but in the end it does nothing. Send her a message that I’m on to her? I live 100 miles away from them and in all likelihood will not be seeing them in the near future or if I’m lucky, at all. The children do not live in terrible living conditions; besides a mother who is an on and off binge drinker they have it ok. Granted, she is crazy, but living out where I live if you have a mother that is simply a crazy drunk your doing better than most of these meth addicts. I know it sounds harsh and cavalier, but the government does not carry much weight around here; CPS has proved its impotent and I’m not sure what they have to offer would benefit the family even if they tried.
PS: I understand your point about the broken collarbone and stabbing incident (2007 AD), but the father is not willing to file charges. If he is not willing to do anything how am I going to change the situation?
For starters: A police report showing that any of this actually occured. Or a father willing to admit he was the victim of abuse. Or a direct threat to the children.
Unfortunately, CPS is under-staffed and under-funded. That means only the worst of the worst cases get priority. Many caseworkers in my area have huge caseloads they are responsible for and work 12-14 hour days meeting mandates and interviewing clients, etc. And their job never gets done. Even though this seems to many outsiders to be very abusive (and I agree it is abusive and traumatizing for the children) there just aren’t enough resources to deal with this kind of case, especially when the father is uncooperative. Sure, CPS workers can offer information about parenting classes etc. but odds are, if there has never been any CPS contact with this family before, all the caseworker can do is provide names and numbers of parenting classes. After that, it would be left up to the parents to reach out and seek assistance. Unfortunately, due to the fact that the father is covering up for the mother so she doesn’t face any consequences, it doesn’t seem likely that the parents will take advantage of any resources offered.
In my province, CPS investigates when they are called. Although an immediate apprehension is uncommon, often assistance and referrals are provided to help the parent deal with whatever challenges are standing in the way of being a good parent. The progress of the child and the parent is monitored on an ongoing basis if there is a significant problem. The more often things get out of hand, the more deeply involved CPS will become, but CPS will not know when things are out of hand unless people are willing to stand up to the plate and call them.
How long does it take to make a call? Probably less time than has been spent participating in this thread.
I think you should talk to the cops. Tell them that, now, in the light of day, you can think calmly and assess the damages and now you want to press charges against her for damaging your property.
Just filing charges against her ought to be enough to revoke her probation, which would get her away from your friend and the kids. It also puts another person on record for your friend’s inevitable custody battle. It won’t just be he said - she said. And it may give the older child’s father incentive to step in and take her from Mary too.
Talk to a lawyer first, if you want. It’s never a bad idea. But I think filing charges for property damage would be enough to get the ball rolling on Mary.
If he testified independently as to the events that happened, and the opposing side suggested that he was fabricating the events due to a more recent motive, the statement would probably become admissible to rebut that charge – because at that point, as kaylasdad99 says, the statement is being admitted not for the truth of the matter, but for the date on it.
Isn’t this enough of a benefit to pick up the phone?
Look, you know these people better than us. We only have what you’ve shared in thread. If you think it’s better for the kids to let it be, then we should trust your (and your wife’s) judgment.
But ask yourself this, if this is how this woman acts when she’s in front of friends - what kind of horror show is going on in that house away from outside eyes? You seem to have spent the last half of this thread defending this couple. Do you suspect anything else that might be dysfunctional in this family? Drugs, other kinds of abuse, etc? Any chance the dad (your friend) is worried about the police getting too involved in anything in fear of them turning up something in his closet? I’m not alleging sexual abuse here but I am saying that you should look at these people with clear eyes and see if there is anything else that seems off.
I just find it hard to believe that this woman’s drunken violence is an isolated problem in an otherwise awesome and happy life… more likely it’s just one side of a much more complex problem that this family is going through, whatever it is.
And that’s not benefit enough? How do you think those kids are going to feel when they realize that people saw what was going on and did nothing, because they “didn’t want to get involved”? Or “figured that it wouldn’t do any good”?
Nobody’s asking you to be Batman here and knock some evildoer skulls. They’re telling you to make a goddamned phone call. Don’t talk yourself out of it. It’s the right thing to do.