I don’t know what you mean by this. How can an entire country changing how they live their lives and living in fear because of the actions of one person mean that he lost?
I am at the moment admiring the Norwegians for not losing their sense of perspective - this was one guy doing crazy, awful things. Whatever punishment they decide for Breivik, it doesn’t bring any of the dead back to life.
It is up to the people 21 years into the future to keep him locked up for life, with repeated court-proceedings. I wouldn´t mind it if it happened. his victims are the current and future leadership of Norway’s traditionally biggest, most influential political party. if these rules need to be harder, I trust it will happen.
I don´t think he will be released early for good behavior.
[QUOTE=MsWhatsit]
What a stupid thing to say. There is no “winning” here. He did an awful thing, and now everyone has to cope with the aftermath. Going around blatting about how this is a “learning experience” is just…just stop. Stop.
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thank you
[QUOTE=Magiver]
If you don’t allow his actions to change you then he has won.
concurrently serving sentences does not make sense. I can understand the idea of proportional intent (drunk driver kills 5 people in a car) but in this case he willful committed multiple, independent, acts of murder.
A law without proportion makes allowances for and encourages leverage. If this isn’t a learning experience then another will present itself.
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Our law has served us well for generations. As I pointed out early on, before we knew the true extent of the horror, this is the first hostile act on Norwegian soil since WWII.
We do not have the death penalty, because we as a society are better than this man. Giving him 1932 years in prison (21 years times 92 murders) is the same as a death penalty with torture beforehand, so we won’t do that.
The simple fact of it is that it is not possible to give this man a punishment in proportion to his crime. So we won’t try. We will keep our humanity instead, were so many others have lost theirs.
“We will retaliate with more democracy”.
The best thing we can do is to hold fast to our beliefs and to stay true to the ideals we set highest. Among them is humane treatment of all, no matter what they have done.
We will not sell our souls for vengeance.
Well said, Septima.
I would rather he realised the consequences of his actions and have to live with every day being hell on earth. But I’m cruel that way.
What I mean by this is that this concurrent sentencing represents a dangerous flaw that is easily leveraged.
That’s another way of saying any law enacted is a good one. Sometimes laws are not perfect and their flaws, when presented, can and should be fixed.
Since this thread is not about the structure of the law I will not continue addressing it. I only wanted to counter the initial idea put forth that his actions shouldn’t change the law. That is a highly flawed position to make in light of what it allows for. 90 could easily have been 1,000. Add as many zeros as necessary before the horror of it sinks in enough to address the functionality of the law. What if every member of the opposing political party had been killed? This is how revolutions start.
This man should never see the light of day and the law should reflect this directly directly instead of having a work-around solution to “try” to keep him in longer. I don’t think Norway will lose any sense of national identity if laws are altered because of it. There are reactionary laws (such as those that spur on the TSA in the United States) and then there are laws that are enacted to close the gap on the intent of original laws.
I think it’s reasonable for Norway to reassess the intent of concurrent sentencing in light of what has taken place. I stand by the Norwegians in this tragedy and support them any future decisions they may or may not make in light of it.
Erhm…how?
How what?
He’s asking how life in prison is the same as the death penalty, but with torture beforehand.
I applaud you, Septima, I really do. I can be proud that my ancestors, and my last name, are of Norwegian origin.
I also hope that, during his 21 years in prison, that monster isn’t able to infect any of the other inmates that will be getting out sooner.
Tell you what…if any of those children happen to be holding dual citizenship with the U.S., we’d be happy to try him here.
I know that Norway wouldn’t agree to that, but 21 years is simply not enough. That’s less that three months for each death.
No, it’s not enough.
I would encourage you to start another thread on this as it needs to start from your perspective first. Maybe down the road when the dust settles because this is a time for unity. Laws by themselves are neither good nor bad but in this thread any mention of altering the law sounds negative when that is not the intent.
I would suggest that it is entirely up to the Norwegians to decide what they think as a proportional punishment for this crime. While some of us from other countries may think that 21 years is too short a sentence, it is not our decision to make. And criticizing Norway under the current circumstance is very bad form.
Ok, “torture” beforehand was bit quick. WHat I meant was this:
If you give somebody a prison sentence that it is impossible for them to serve (not just unlikely, but impossible, like several normal human lifetimes), it is just a way to sneak the death penalty in the back way, since what you are really sentencing them to is to die in prison.
The years they spend in prison before they die then become irrelevant, extra “sugar” on the death penalty cake = torture.
But this is a whole different topic I think. If someone wants to invite to a debate on this, then I will bring my Norwegian perspective to the table.
But in a few days, when the pain is lessened, the dust has settled, and life is moving on a bit. I hope it will.
In any case, can you imagine this person serving a sentence and then being released back into society? We’ll do him a favor by locking him up for life. In fact, doing so is probably the only practical possibility. Releasing him will be the death sentence.
Seriously, lets give it a week or 3 and concentrate on support. I’m sorry I mentioned it but would like to discuss it later. We are all Norwegians in this thread.
Thank you, yes, let’s do that.
This/
BTW, an update.
It appears he had Utøya to himself for over an hour. The ultimate nightmare for the 700 people trapped there with him.
It also appears he surrendered without a fight as soon as the real police challenged him. This is so unlike what happened in other similar crimes around the world. This is so strange.
He was a typical cowardly bully, scared of his own shadow.
Septima, can I say how much I admire your reaction and your PM’s reaction? How you feel your society should react—not with paranoia, or retaliation, or really by changing in any way. That kind of courage is amazing and heartening.
I’m very sorry for your loss.
I saw it pointed out elsewhere that on a per capita basis this surpasses 9/11 (deaths per American population). Please don’t think I’m comparing the two. I do not think tragedies should be measured against each other like that; I only offer this to put the numbers into perspective for USA-ians.
Agreed.