Overnight guests in *my* dorm room...

The BBQ Pit
61

For once, I agree with The Ryan. He may be making his poit poorly, but it’s right on. The discourse in this thread is indicative of the heaping piles of bullshit from the “Take Back the Night” crowd that “EVERY man is a potential rapist.” That’s crap. Every man is NOT a potential rapist, any more than every woman is a potential whore.

How about you not speak for all women? I am personally acquainted with women who were sexually molested as children who are mature enough and intelligent enough to divorce themselves from the irrational fear that any strange man they meet is just waiting for an opportunity to commit forced sexual intercourse.

62

pldennison: Who the heck said that every man is a potential rapist??

63

Green Bean, in my opinion, the statement, “As far as worrying about the guy being a ‘rapist’ - that’s a fear ALL women have with almost any strange man they meet” is close enough that distinguishing between the two statements would be minor quibbling. “Almost any” is close enough to “every” that I don’t feel uncomfortable characterizing it that way, but I’m certainly willing to be corrected.

Either way you cut it, though, it’s still crap. Someone earlier stated that there were 600,000 rapes committed last year. Now, I would question that number–according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report for 1999, forcible rapes comprised 0.8% of the total number of reported offenses in the index, which was 11,635,149. That gives us a total of 93,000 forcible rapes. Even given that rape is an underreported crime, I see no reason to assume that it is underreported by a factor of 6, nor that it inreased that much from 1999 to 2000.

But for the sake of argument, let’s assume that the 600,000 number is true. According to the latest available census information, there are 90,433,000 males between age 15 and age 64 in the United States. Generously assuming that each of those 600,000 rapes was committed by a unique individual – that there were no multiple rapists or serious rapists – that means that 0.6% of the mean in the U.S. committed a rape. 0.6%. That is so far from “every man” or “nearly all strange men” as to illustrate the statement for the ludicrous pile of crap that it is.

Furthermore, it shows complete ignorance of the statistical differences in rapes reported in large and small population centers, as well as the difference in likelihood between being raped by a relative or acquaintance and being raped by a stranger.

“Every man is a potential rapist” and “Nearly all strange men are potential rapists” is so far from the truth, such a monumentally ignorant distortion of the facts, that were a comparable statement to be made about women, the persons making it would be (rightfully) raked over the coals. It contributes to public paranoia over violent crime, it makes people mistrustful of one another, and it does nothing to further relationships in general among the genders.

64

This statement seems to imply that AoTL is immature and stupid for acknowledging the possibility that the 28-year-old stranger her teenaged roommate invited to spend the night in their room might not be all he claims to be. Aren’t we supposed to discourage young girls/teenagers from meeting older men online, even if the men say they’re nice?

I’ve had men try to cajole me into inviting them in and accepting drinks or car rides by snickering at my instinct toward self-presevation. (Thankfully, I’ve read The Gift of Fear and am far less likely to be manipulated into ignoring my instincts and common sense. I mean, do criminals ever say, “Please let me in so I can rob/beat/rape/murder you”?) Only one guy got angry and treated my decision a personal attack – it just confirmed my suspicion that while he probably wasn’t dangerous, he was definitely an asshole.

The odds are good that in the majority of cases nothing bad would have come of my saying ‘yes’, but the problem is that for some women, the worst does happen and I don’t want to be one of those women. Worse yet, people are quick to blame the victim for negative consequences: “You mean, you just met this guy and you let him into your house? You didn’t ask the meter reader for I.D. and verify it with his employer like it suggests on your gas bill? Some frat boy walked up to you with a drink and you just took it? You got into his car? Well, what did you expect?”

Avoiding underground parking lots, taking cabs instead of walking alone, and be wary of sharing sleeping quarters with men you don’t know show signs of common sense, not paranoia. Violent opportunists thank God for insecure, malleable “I’ll just give everyone the benefit of the doubt so no one’s offended” women. Thankfully, some men understand and respect a woman’s decision to get to know them before locking themselves alone in a room with them.

65

I didn’t say anything about AotL’s original post, Cajo; I was discussing yosemitebabe’s statement (my repeated quoting of it should have made that somewhat obvious) and it’s implications. Nor would I say that it is unreasonable to be wary of strangers spending the night in one’s home; my statements were addressing the “women should be concerned that any strange man they meet anywhere could be a rapist” school of thought. That is an immature, irrational fear.

When I’m addressing a statement in the OP, I’ll make it quite clear, thank you.

66

But this line occured long after the OP. What I find disturbing is that these guys began attacking AoTL long before anything resembling an accusation was made. AoTL was being extremely conservative, especially for a RANT in the BBQ PIT.

Of course when someone is being attacked, they sometimes make statements that are not entirely accurate. I do not think that all, or even most, women fear rape from every man they meet, but I would say that the overwhelming majority of women would consider the possibility if a strange man were going to be sleeping next to them.

The Ryan now claims that his argument was that AToL should addressed the possibility that the stranger might be a rapist, rather than the probability that he is a rapist. Even if AToL hadn’t very clearly stated the “probably isn’t a rapist” I have to ask, just how much of a PC line are we expected to toe here in THE PIT? As has been stated before, all sorts of extreme statements are made here. Why are you jumping on your interpretation of what any fair person would say is a mild rant?

67

**

You also seemed to be addressing this thread in general, which I presumed to include the OP. It would appear you meant “the thread except for the OP or I would have mentioned it specifically, silly!”, so it’s my bad.

While it’s kind of you not to mock a woman’s concern over a stranger in her bedroom, bringing up your devil-may-care sexually molested friends is puzzling. What is the point you’re trying to make here – how exactly do they display their smarts and bravery as opposed to someone like yosemitebabe (who speaks for not “all” but “many”) when she notes that a total stranger might possibly be a rapist?

68

Just as an aside, and I may be dating myself…the rule when I was stuck in a dorm-room was always “The most restrictive roommate wins (until you can find a roomie who’s a better match)”

In other words, the guy who doesn’t like stinky cigars being smoked trumps the guy who thinks that no meal is complete without one.

The guy who doesn’t think that having 10 people over to watch a bootleg videotape of Monty Python’s Life of Brian and recite the lines trumps the roomie who does.

The guy who doesn’t want 2:00 am poker parties on a school night trumps the guy who does.

And the woman who doesn’t want some strange guy sleeping in the same room with her trumps the one who does.

The only exception to the rule is that schoolwork wins. It doesn’t matter if you don’t want company that night, if your roommate plays the “We’re studying for a test, dammit” card, you lose. It sucks, but it settles arguments quickly and with limited hard feelings. (It also promotes trading roomies quickly.

In any event, AotL, good luck if/when the boyfriend comes back. I second whoever said that now’s the time to start looking for a new room.

And for those trying to make it a paranoid chicks who are male-bashing issue: When I was in college, if my roommate had picked up some whore at one of the local dives (and there were plenty), I’d be damned if I’d have let her sleep over. I have no desire to be robbed, threatened (ever hear of The Badger Game?), or (extremely unlikely, but still plausible) attacked? It’s not a wimpy-chick thing to not want strangers around when you’re sleeping.

Fenris

69

Ha ha, Cajo. I was totally thinking The Gift of Fear, too. (I have mentioned it so many times on this board that I fear I sound like a broken record.) Thanks for bringing it up.

Once again, Fenris sums it up better than anyone. And in fewer words, too. AoTL doesn’t want strangers around when she is sleeping. Sounds reasonable to me.

And did you notice that all the people on AoTL’s “side” are female, and all the others are male? (AFAIK anyway) All the quibbling over the “potential rapist” issue aside, it seems that the women understand that a male stranger in the room is a potentially bad situation, while the men seem positively offended at this.

Not everybody is as nice as the average Doper male. Smart women realize this and take precautions accordingly.

Angel of the Lord should be commended for her common sense.

70

Wait a sec…I appreciate the compliment, but leave us not forget that I’m a guy and I’m on AotL’s side!

How 'bout an “amost” before the word “all”? :wink:

Fenris

71

Okay, “amost” all. Sorry, Fenris. I was so bowled over by your wit, charm, and intelligence, that I forgot about you even as I was quoting you. :stuck_out_tongue:

72

Oh. Well that’s ok, then.

:wink:

Fenris

73

Good grief - did anyone read the whole of my posts? I mean, I know I ramble…but really. I thought I made it perfectly clear. It’s simply about trying to not let oneself be put in a vulnerable position with STRANGERS - any stranger.

ALL STRANGERS are “potentially” anything. That doesn’t mean I think they ALL are, or I am directly accusing them of being anything. Just that the “potential” is there - because they are an unknown quantity. Got it? Have I repeated it enough yet?

The little girl selling Girl Scout cookies could be (though highly unlikely to be) a sneak thief. So maybe I don’t want kids I don’t know wandering around my house alone - OK? The “strange guy I don’t know anything about” could be a rapist - so I don’t want him to sleep overnight in my house - OK? This is not an accusation against Girl Scouts, or men. It’s just about STRANGERS. STRANGERS that happen to be Girl Scouts, or men. See the emphasis there? STRANGERS!!! Strangers have the potential to be quite a few things - some of them unpleasant. ALL strangers have this potential.

I know I took pains to explain this before. What? Are selective parts of my posts invisible?!?

And yes, I noticed that this issue is (almost) going down gender lines. Pretty interesting…

74

Do you mind if I ask how many leaps it took you to get from “divorced themselves from irrational fears” to “devil-may-care”? One? Ten? Is it useful for you to mischaracterize other people’s arguments in order to more easily argue against them? 'Round here, we call those kinds of arguments “straw men.”

To analogize it to a rather timely set of events, if I understand that there are generally fewer than 100 shark attacks worldwide every year, and generally fewer than 20 fatalities, so I decide to hop in the ocean next weekend in Virginia Beach or Miami, am I “divorcing myself from irrational fears” or being “devil-may-care”? If I decide to never, ever go in the ocean again and always assume there are hungry sharks waiting to devour me just offshore, is that rational?
**

Well, it may take smarts, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say it takes bravery to speculate on the potential qualities of strangers. Sure, a stranger might be a rapist, although as I’ve already demonstrated, it’s statistically unlikely. A stranger might also be the King of Sweden. A rational course of action would require one to treat him like neither.

And I’m not at all surprised that there appears to be a split down gender lines in the responses to the thread. The media, along with advocacy organizations, have convinced women that there are rapists lurking at every bus stop, in every alley, around every corner, and that men are ore often than not dangerous predators who can’t take “No” for an answer. And men are quite rightfully resentful about it.

75

Whoops, alost forgot–although it should be patently obvious that reference to “the general discourse” in a two-page thread doesn’t have to include the OP, keep in mind that the references that prompted the responses, beginning with iampunha’s, were:

It wasn’t “Go ahead, get all your stuff stolen, if that’s what he intends” or “Go ahead, watch him OD on crack, if that’s what he intends.” The immediate assumption was “strange man=possible rapist.” Which is exactly what I have been saying. (Yes, I know there is a context of Internet boyfriend, driving two days, yada yada yada, but my general point still stands.)

76

What is the deal here? AotL doesn’t want a strange man in her room. I wouldn’t either, and I’m male. She mentioned the possibility that the stranger could be a rapist. Others have pointed out that he probably isn’t. (Although, statistically speaking, pldennison, it’s more likely that he’s a rapist than the King of Sweden.)

AotL, in my opinion, was imagining one of the worst possible outcomes from letting a stranger stay in her room. That’s not an uncommon reaction. She made no accusation; that leap was made by others posting to the thread. She’s not branding every male on the planet as a potential rapist. I, for one, had no plans of staying overnight in a female’s dorm room over the Labor Day weekend (my wife would have a fit), so I feel safe from branding.

Sheesh, I wish I’d been around some of you guys when your mom told you that you couldn’t have a BB gun because you might shoot your eye out. I bet you pulled out bar graphs and pie charts to debate with her the statistical probability of that happening. Your mom didn’t care if it was a one in a billion chance; she didn’t want that one in a billion to be YOU.

77

I have not, at any point in this thread, expressed an opinion that AotL is wrong for feeling uncomfortable with having a stranger stay in her dorm room. Not one single time. At all. Period.

What I have expressed an opinion about is the instant connection “strange man=possible rapist,” and the out-of-proportion fear of rape in regards to the actual likelihood of rape. I was under the impression that ignorance was something to be fought here. Perhaps I was wrong. In either case, the fact is that, while it’s justifiable to not want to be raped, the combination of the incidence of rapes according to the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reports and the male population of the United States indicates that the fear is indeed out of proportion to the likelihood.

In particular, yosemitebabe has been most guilty of perpetuating the “All men are potential rapists” garbage. Look back over her posts:

“Most women have female friends or aquaintences who have been raped. It’s a REAL fear for us.”

“This is a real and constant concern for women.”

“Most women understand that ‘giving the strange guy that you hardly know the benefit of the doubt, because you don’t KNOW that he’s a rapist’ is an EXTREMELY stupid thing to do.”

“Too damned bad if people like iampunha are somehow offended or ruffled because we wonder or ‘assume’ that strange guys MIGHT be rapists. We have a REASON to worry.”

“However, it is a real fear that most women face - ANY unfamiliar guy could be a rapist, a nutjob, a thief - ANY guy. It’s not personal.”

And, most telling:

If that is not precisely equivalent to “All men are potential rapists,” I will, as I once said in another thread, eat my hat, your shorts, and two pounds of dogshit. And it isn’t true. All men are not potential rapists, unless we’re operating under the assumption that all people are potentially anything, which is pretty damned stupid.

Oh, and as for custard dragon, who said the following to iampunha:

This is precisely what is wrong with making assumptions about people. You and your 49 posts must feel awfully comfortable making this assessment based on one post in one thread. I mean, that’s all you need to know about him to judge him as “dangerous,” huh?

Well, some of us have met him in person. Several times. In fact, lots of us have. Folks, does pun strike any of you as “dangerous”? Maybe a potential rapist? Hardly. Far from it. I literally cannot conceive of him attempting to force sexual intercourse on a woman. Or a man, for that matter. I believe he would react like Alex in A Clockwork Orange, post-Ludovico Treatment, were such a thought to even cross his mind.

But go on–keep thinking the worst of people. It must be a great way to live.

78

So, um, Angel? Can I get a denoument, please? Roommate invited this guy down, this guy came down, and… what? Nice, sweet romance? Screaming fit? Still cleaning the blood off the walls? Cleaning other fluids off the walls?

Enquiring minds and all that.

79

We’re going by post-count now? That’s what determines the validity of someone’s opinion?

I agree that painting all men with the “potential rapist” brush is wrong. However, the folks who initially responded to the OP were off-base, in my opinion. She has/had a real fear of a strange man staying in her dorm room, and articulated that fear by imagining one of the worst things that can happen to a woman. Was it likely to happen? No. Was it possible? Of course. For another poster to taunt her by saying “You better go see if your roomie is raped yet” is asinine and childish.

Her roommate acted irresponsibly in allowing a person she didn’t know to spend the night in the room. If she wants to take that risk, fine. She shouldn’t inflict that risk on others.

80

It does when that opinion is being rendered by a person who has been registered all of a month, and is being rendered about another person who has been registered here significantly longer and is known off-board quite well by several other posters. If you feel otherwise, I certainly can’t stop you.