I know this must be a heavy blow to your vanity, but the post of mine which riled you was directed at Olentzero (who was going on about “heinous acts” without specifying suicide bombings and who has been treating us to explanations about Palestinians being driven to (generic) terrorism for much of this thread).
If you want to start a thread about suicide bombings and how motivations for them differ entirely from any other acts of terrorism targeting civilians, go to it.
Sorry you’re in such a touchy mood. I hope you get that G.E.D. or whatever it is you’re studying for.
No. No, I am not. The problem is that most people who express outrage at these acts use it as a stepping stone to paint the whole Palestinian population as a bunch of anti-Semitic terrorists with nothing more than the blood of innocent Jews on their minds. I mean, note the title of the thread - “Palestinian scum”. Not “Fuck the Islamic Jihad” or “Hamas are a pack of child-murdering bastards”. “Palestinian scum.” These actions are all too often blatantly interpreted as the will and desire of the entire Palestinian people. Sure, there are prominent Palestinian organizations that spout fire and brimstone about the destruction of the State of Israel, and encode it into their constitutions, but that doesn’t mean every last Palestinian in the West Bank and Gaza agrees with it 100%. We might as well call RTFirefly or Polycarp murdering scum because of Eric Rudolph, since all three of them are Christians. It’s exactly the same as the old practice of calling all Jews ‘Christ-killers’, and it makes just as much sense.
All I’m really trying to say is, don’t condemn the Palestinians, or their fight for self-determination, simply because of the tactics of some of the higher-profile organizations. IMO, the fightback is justified given the history of Zionist activity in the region both before and after 1948, and my point has been to try and illustrate why that fightback is justified, and that it is not wholly, or even mostly, based on anti-Semitism.
OK…I see the problem. I don’t want to put words in her (his?) mouth, but I’m guessing that Shaynaused the word “Palestinians” when she meant to say "Arabs " in the original quote. So instead of debating her basic thesis, you chose to make it an excercise in semantics, adroitly countering her literal words while studiously avoiding her point.
The you being yours truly. Consequently, I disagreed with your assertion that no change in tactice occurred, since I made the original argument that there was a change. Olentzero and I were specifically talking about suicide terror, which was made crystal clear from my post at the top of the page. Olentzero had no trouble understanding what I was talking about.
Well sure. But that isn’t really the point. I just want to find out why Olentzero thinks it’s all right for Palestinians to off civilians in such frequent and gruesome ways. And why they resort to these sorts of tactics when other groups do not. It’s not so complicated, I don’t think.
I don’t. But problems don’t get solved by merely pointing with horror and revulsion at the tangible results thereof. If we don’t make an attempt to understand how things got to be this way, we’ll have no hope of fixing it.
Saying the problem exists because all Arabs are anti-Semitic and would rather kill a Jew as soon as live next door to him, and that Islam is the reason they think that way is, quite frankly, racist. Same for painting the entire Palestinian population with one broad brush because certain high-profile organizations commit vicious acts of individual terrorism. And the only solution it points to is the madness of continued escalation until something even more unthinkable happens.
Israel’s already proven its willingness to occupy southern Lebanon for almost 20 years in ‘self-defense’, and to bomb Syria because it believes Palestinian training camps are located there. Would you stand by Israel’s right to self-defense if, God forbid, it felt popping a nuke over Damascus was necessary to protect itself?
Because the sentence you’ve constructed above makes a generalization about one population while accusing them of generalizing about another.
And if we’re going to deal with facts it should be pointed out that it has been repeatedly pointed out that there is a significant segment of the Palestinian population – and much of the Arab/Muslim world – that does indeed support and admire anti-Semitic terrorists. The killing of Rantisi – a very anti-Semitic terrorist with nothing more than the blood of innocent Jews on his mind – was widely condemned in the Arab/Muslim world.
If you don’t want to look like an anti-Semitic terrorist you might want to start by actually condemning anti-Semitic terrorists.
Cite?
And again you are ignoring the numerous polls that have been posted that do indeed show widespread support among the Palestinians for acts like the act condemned in the OP.
Your analogy does not work. Eric Rudolph was widely condemned by nearly all Christian organizations. OTOH Thousands of Palestinians showed up to march to mourn Rantisi. Most Arab/Muslim government condemned the killing when they did not do enough to condemn Rantisi’s disgusting acts. They also fund Hamas and Islamic Jihad, organizations that do nothing at all to really help Palestinians.
Does every last Palestinian agree with the radicals? No. Do a majority? Sure seems like it.
You need to define your terms better.
By most moral standards “the fight for self determinination” does not include the right to slaughter a woman and her children.
And you need to further define “fightback.” Because my definition of fighting back against Bush the First was to throw a tennis ball over the White House fence and march on the Mall. That definition did not include murdering innocent Republicans.
And ignoring the fact that the woman in the OP was indeed murdered BECAUSE of Arab/Muslim anti-Semitism is insulting. This was a hate crime and it is hardly racist to point that out.
Are all Arabs anti-Semitic? No. Is there a problem with anti-Semitism in the Arab/Muslim world right now? Yes. It’s not the only problem in the Arab/Israeli conflict but it’s certainly a contributing factor.
Amazing. You really can’t quite bring yourself to condemn the murder of this woman and her children and then you turn around and imply that others are being racist in this thread when they point out that she was murdered by anti-Semites. Unbelievable.
Gods… I so shouldn’t respond, I’m sure you eat this attention up, but I just can’t let this slide…
(and yeah, I’ll try not to respond again, you can keep ignoring facts in order to support your racist dogma, don’t worry)
This is why people, myself included, have called you a liar.
Because either you willfully contradict yourself, or you lie. It’s binary.
You say you don’t support the murder of Israeli civilians. But then you talk about ‘how things got this way’ and how we have to ‘fix it’. That implies, if you are unaware of what you yourself are saying, is that SOMETHING the Israelis DID somehow CAUSED the Palestinians to target civilians.
And that position is just flat out bullshit, as everybody has been pointing out to you.
Things ‘got this way’ because, yes, the Arab world IS anti-Semitic, and yes, the Palestinian leadership DOES want to commit GENOCIDE.
Racist, factual, hey, what does it matter when YOU are the one making up your own little cosmology?
I know that we ALL have said that every Palestinian, down to pregnant mothers and babies, deserve to be killed for their crimes and that… oh, no… .that was YOU saying how it was ‘logical’ that the Palestinians would murder Israeli mothers and babies as part of a ‘fightback’ (still a fucking moronic word and newspeak to boot!).
Would you feel better if we simply said “the portion of the Palestinian population which endorses their society’s cold and methodical war against Israel civilians are scum as well as those who provide moral and material support to terrorists and the terrorists themselves?.”
Doesn’t roll off the tongue as easy as "Palestinian scum "
(not by the way the emphasis is on SCUM, not Palestinian. They’re scum who happens to be Palestinian, not all Palestinians are evil.)
(Don’t believe me? Here are some more facts you’ll ignore. )
You keep saying ‘individual terrorism’ as if that will make your LIE true.
Terrorism in Israel is sponsored, directed, funded by
The PLO and Arafat
Hamas
Islamic Jihad
(formerly) Iraq
Saudi Arabia
etc…
Individual MY ASS.
Or for, I dunno, the Palestinians to quit deliberately murdering women and babies?
Just a thought.
Again you’re lie, and are disgusting.
The PLO was holed up in Lebanon and collaborating with Hezbollah while the PLO was launching civilian-targeted-attacks against Israel.
Again… you put quotes around defensive to suggest… what exactly? That breaking up a terrorist network that is attacking you is bad?
You mean… it’s not a… fightback? ~vomits~
Or maybe because there is a documented relationship between Syria and Lebanon and the terrorist network that works between the two of them?
(again, ignore this fact, it contradicts with your RACIST view that the Jews are the aggressors)
(And why do I say racist? Because you are DELIBERATELY blanking out data which would invalidate your claim that there are Evil Zionists who launch Wars of Aggression. In other words, you WANT to believe IN SPITE OF THE FACTS, that the ‘Zionists’ [read: Israelis] are evil)
Well, I personally would say there were over-reacting. But if, for example, the Syrians used Damascus and turned it into a vast terrorism-hub, then Israel would certainly be justified, DEFENSIVELY, to invade and/or bomb the fuck out of them.
Or if, for example, the entire Arab world, AGAIN, organized to destroy Israel through force of arms, then yes, nuking them in a first-strike would be perfectly cool in my book, that’s why Israel HAS nukes.
(But don’t worry, the history of the entire Arab world trying to commit GENOCIDE and publicly stating that their goal was GENOCIDE doesn’t mean that they weren’t in a ‘fightback’ against the Israelis who were, as I’m sure I can believe, since I TRUST you, somehow antagonizing countries whose borders they didn’t even touch. )
Oh heck. My phrasing was very poor in that analogy. I did not mean to compare Republicans with Islamic Jihad. Some of my best friends really are Republican. I love them, I swear.
Heck, I know you weren’t making that comparison, no worries. I was just making a joke. ( and, in a thread about absolutes-“All” Israelies, “All” Palistinians, etc…a slightly ironic one, because there are indeed people who have posted here that anyone who is a Republican MUST be the biggest idiot that never pissed on a light socket)
Folks, help me out on this. I’m looking at a [post=4834848]post[/post] in this very thread, with Olentzero’s name on it, that has the following quote:
What’s the deal? Is he lying through his teeth when he tries talks out of both sides of his lying pie hole?
Ding, Ding, Ding! Welcome to Olentzero World, where if you know what someone means (and they actually mean the same thing you mean!), but it doesn’t support your twisted distortions of the truth, it’s ok to divert the conversation with semantic bullshit in an effort to distract people from the fact that the content of the quote really did prove you wrong.
Oh, and Finn, I {{{hug}}} you, too. You are a far better person than I, that you can continue to confront the lies put forth here in an effort to blame us for scum murdering our families, in such a calm and reasoned manner (often injecting downright hilarious humor, to boot!). My hat is off to you!
Where the hell have I said it does?! I mean, it should be crystal clear; I’ve said I don’t condone the tactics of individual terror, yet I support the Palestinian struggle for self-determination, up to and including armed struggle. I can come out right now and say:
The fight for self-determination does not include the right to murder a pregnant woman and her children
if you like. But I’ve been saying that all along.
Oh, for the love of all that is reasonable and just - what the hell else could you conclude from my repeated assertions that I don’t condone individual terrorism? Just because I don’t use the exact words you want me to- ie calling them ‘murdering scum’ when there are piles of people around the globe who are far more deserving of the title - doesn’t mean I don’t feel the same way about this incident.
What’s racist is saying that all violence between Arab and Jew has anti-Semitism at its base. It’s attributing one motive to an entire population. Not all Arabs are anti-Semitic, and not all violent actions that result from the Palestinians’ struggle for self-determination have anti-Semitism at their base. I don’t doubt that you can point to specific events and say “This is an anti-Semitic act”, but to point to the tenets of an organization or to specific acts and conclude that therefore the fight of Palestinians to win back what was taken from them and to claim the right of return is anti-Semitic at its base is racist.
-The PLO charter that calls for the extermination of all zionists in Israel
the same PLO which directs these attacks against civilian targets
-Thus, the PLO has NO responsibility and isn’t anti-Semitic
-And if you dare to suggest it you’re a racist.
Olentzero grade logic, who could possibly dispute it?
You keep saying that Israel stole stuff from the Palestinians, but I’ve furnished you with both cites and quotes PROVING that the Arab nations told them to leave in preparation for their attack on Israel.
WHY are you CHOOING to IGNORE that FACT???
and
WHY are you MAKING UP a CONTRADICTORY and UNTRUE claim?
