[QUOTE=sevastopolIf a malevolent person wished to make a pit thread “jew scum” this week they might launch from these events. [/QUOTE]
If I’m correct, the pit thread you are referring to expresses disgust at the wanton slaughter of a pregnant Israeli settler and her four young daughters by Arab gunmen living in the Gaza Strip. The OP expresses outrage at the vile act by calling the perpitrators “Palestinian scum”. How does the killing compare on any moral scale with the Israeli government’s alleged funding of settlement expansion?
What was your purpose in making that statement in this debate?
Extremely poor example, since you keep the same type of action in the first case (killing) in order to justify one side while you considerably tone it down for the second in order to show the second side has no good justification.
More apts comparisons would be :
Neighbor attempt to kill you. You can justify killing him
Neigbor make you live in the barn instead of the house. He’s guarding the door and is armed. You’re forbidden to leave the barn except for medical emergencies, and even then, not always. Sometimes, he allows you to go buying some groceries. Anyway you don’t have any money to pay the groceries, since he doesn’t allow you to leave in order to find a job. And he just seized your garden, where you grew some vegetables (when you had access to water, of course, he cuts it on a regular basis). You don’t have a lawn, of course. And he just decided he’s going to demolish part of the barn you’re living in because he wants a little more room for his dog’s kennel. Now, what do you think you’re justified into doing?
Because it’s just nonsentical to came back 2000 years ago, except for some religious nutjobs. And why the descendant of the hebrews rather than the descendants of the Egyptians, for instance, while you are at it? It’s just totally irrelevant.
Meaningful claims can’t be based on what happened some milleniums ago. Or if you believe they can, begin asking for the USA to be handed back to the descendants of native americans only. They have a much more recent claim than the Jews on Palestine. You can also give back Iran to the Zoroastrians currently living in India, in order to make room for the Roms who have a claim on India, and you could go on making some thousands similarily ludicrous arguments.
Since you’re responding that, does it mean that you deny that "15 year-old kid growing up in Gaza, live in a shithole with no hope or future ", as the poster you’re responding to stated?
Nice example, except you forgot to mention that the neighbor repeatedly offered to let you live in the guest house, and each time your reply was “I’ll kill you before I’ll except anything but living in your house”.
Kinda changes things, dosen’t it? I don’t expect you to admit this, but what the hey, it’s only the truth, why let that little detail stand in the way of your righteous diatribe?
You left out the bomb that the guy keeps building in the barn. You also left out the neighbor’s five kids who’ve been taught that their highest aspiration in life should be to go to the local grocery store and murder as many shoppers as possible while killing themselves.
Sorry about not responding sooner but am busy in real life. So many other posters have been doing such a good job anyway that I really didn’t see much a need to jump in.
Sorry, I am confused. This thread has been all over the place. In the analogy, the neighbor represents the Isralies. Are you saying that the neighbors kids (the Israelies) are being taught that they "should be to go to the local grocery store and murder as many shoppers as possible while killing themselves. "? Or are you saying that that’s what the barn dweller(the Palistinian leadership) is teaching his kids? I am pretty sure that you mean the latter, but that’s not what you said.
Sorry FinnAgain, I missed a post of yours. Things have moved on, but I’ll address the following:
I came into this thread because it seemed to me that feelings were running so high, people were just shouting past each other and missing each other’s points. My psychic powers are weak, so your interpretation of Olentzero may indeed be more accurate than mine. Personally I didn’t think he was excusing anything or saying that the Intifada was a good thing, just that it was an understandable result of the situation.
NO. It is demonisation. You demonise people, it becomes okay to treat them like shit, to kill them. The reason they support suicide bombings is because THEY have demonised Israelis. The reason that twisted little monster felt it was okay to blow up a pregant mother and kids was because he didn’t SEE a pregnant mother and kids, he saw Israeli demons, Jewish scum. We ALL have to retreat from that kind of thinking.
I’m not entirely sure, but I can make a suggestion - start with the little things.
There’s no shortage of pro-Palestian websites detailing various grievances, some small, some not so small. Make some effort to address them.
Read the “On the Agenda” section of the following site:
which is an Israeli human rights site. Sorry I can’t do direct links to the particular articles. The “Police Brutality” section details a lot of incidents of abuse. Abuse is bound to happen when you give teenagers guns and power over a demonised and frankly provocative enemy. Work to keep it to an absolute minimum. Work to put on a lid on this stuff, in fact bend over backwards to be scrupulously fair and just, and be seen to be scrupulously fair and just.
Then, on torture of detainees:
You MUST close that legal door completely and nail it shut, and make sure that it is enforced.
Then there are economic and farming issues, for example:
details the difficulties West Bank farmers have with irrigating, fertillising and marketing their crops. Try and help them. Try and interact with them. Let some Palestinians, especially the kids, see that not all Israelis are demons. Let them have some hope that they can improve their lives. Maybe then the next poll will show dwindling support for suicide bombings.
On a brighter note, scroll down through this article and you will find details of a Palestinian organisation known as the Democracy and Workers’ Rights Centre (DWRC).
Now some parts of that article are the same old crap - the PA reacted negatively to democratisation and independent unions. Depressing. But on the other hand, there are people among the Palestinians who you may be able to work with. The seeds are there.
Yes. But I sometimes pick up litter that other people have dropped. Israel shouldn’t HAVE to make the “first move”, but that doesn’t mean it CAN’T.
Again I agree, but a LOT has to happen before we get to that stage. Fundamental changes in attitude and climate, on both sides. The Palestinians who might wage such a war may not even have been born yet.
Shayna
"In a seminar held at Al-Najah University under the auspices of the Palestine National Authority, Sakher Habash noted:
… our principles in “Fateh” has always been to liberate all our Palestinian national land and…" etc. etc.
Not good, but… a university seminar is a university seminar. Delegates give speeches, people discuss. Fateh is an organisation with an unacceptable and unrealistic agenda, and they will have to change it or become marginalised and eventually disappear.
Way to miss the point. Unreasonable amount of force refers to use of force in self defece. There is no defence of “defence of property” in homicide.
It’s kinda hard to show you where it says “there is no defence of defence of property”, because it would be like saying, “there is no defence of you can murder people on fridays”. Not feasible for there to be a list of what does NOT make up a defence. That said, in the facts of the case, you can clearly see that defence of property, if it existed, would have been made out on the facts. It wasn’t. And self defence didn’t work, either. Ergo, your statement is proven false.
Using a false statement as a basis for your argument isn’t very convincing.
While I know all about how demonizing The Other is wrong, I wonder about the soundness of your reliance on that position in this circumstance… Why is it a demonization to say “7 out of 10 of their citizens want to kill our civilians.” After all, it’s not like it isn’t the truth…
Saying ALL Palestinians is, yes, demonization.
Saying 60-80% of them want someone to kill Israeli civilians, and thus something is fucked up in their society, is just a factual observation.
I will certainty agree to most of the points you made especially ending torture. However… on other of them, the little things…
Doesn’t every nation on earth have a policy of “we will not negotiate with terrorists?” Especially in the ME a show of weakness would only encourage more violence. If Israel were to respond with ‘little things’, wouldn’t the PA and the Palestinian/Arab population at large take that to mean that if you kill enough Israeli civilians, eventually they’ll give in to your demands?
This question isn’t facetious…
I think it’s rather important.
Besides the possibly valid objection of not wanting to give in to terrorism:
As I see it, it is true that there can not be peace until there is no terrorism (by definition, there is no peace when busses are exploding in Tel Aviv).
So even an Israeli first move that did not do away with terrorism would leave Israel making good offers, maybe even with a PA negotiating in good faith, and then being attacked by suicide bombers…
What is wrong with saying, specifically :
** The government and people of Palestine, as a pre-condition to statehood and for the good of the region, must join Israel in the legal and military battle against any and all terrorist organizations which target civilians.**?
Because, it seems to me, any good-will strategy on Israel’s part would take a minimum of a decade to kick in.
Which brings us to
The only way I see to achieve this change without first doing away with terrorism would be to conduct a dual-campaign. A military campaign against terrorists and a social campaign to improve the lives of the Palestinians…
Then again, to be fair, while the Intifada is going on it’s impossible for the economy of either population to function well, let alone pay for the betterment of the other population…
[quote=matt responding to shayna""In a seminar held at Al-Najah University under the auspices of the Palestine National Authority, Sakher Habash noted:
… our principles in “Fateh” has always been to liberate all our Palestinian national land and…" etc. etc.
Not good, but… a university seminar is a university seminar. Delegates give speeches, people discuss. Fateh is an organisation with an unacceptable and unrealistic agenda, and they will have to change it or become marginalised and eventually disappear.[/QUOTE]
This seem to me to be the crux of the issue though. Even if the Israelis were to gain the economic ability to make good-will gestures in tandem to waging a war on the terrorists (which would leave Palestinian collateral damage…)
Even if the Israelis were to do simply devote their economy to the improvement of Palestinian lands…
How could the Israelis achieve security until organizations like Fatah had already been de-clawed?
How could the Israelis achieve security when the entire Palestinian society, from education to government, is geared up solely to indoctrinate and wage war against Zionism and Israel?
I don’t mean to just throw up arguments, but I honestly cannot see how Israel could make a first move without having its own security taken care of first.
One final point:
Let us assume that Israel were to, suddenly, stop waging war against terrorists and fund the improvement of the PA and its citizens.
Terrorism against Israeli civilians would not stop
Palestinian children would see Israelis building irrigation in their fields and then return home to parents telling them about the Evil Zionist agenda, and schools that distort history with the aim or producing martyrs and a political network that is in bed with the terrorists.
I ask you, would those Palestinian children listen more to their parents and teachers and government, or more to Israeli ‘propaganda’ and whatever the Israelis were doing at the time?
If, while you were growing up, a foreign country was giving financial aid to yours concurrent with your parents telling you that country was evil, your schools telling you that country was evil… If as a child you experienced that, do you think you’d even read the news articles about the good things this foreign country was doing? Do you think the newspapers would even report on good things the other country did if the owners of the newspaper want to make sure everybody hates that other country?
In short, how, in practical terms, can you let your guard down to a society which is organized around the idea of killing all your population?
Perhaps you are unaware of jurisprudence, but ANY issue can be litigated on. (or at least can be brought to the court and later thrown out). Thus, the fact that a contrary case can be made (on faulty logical premises none the less) does not go towards proving ambiguity.
FinnAgain:
That will teach me. I had a long point-by-point reply, parallels with the British Government’s experience in Northern Ireland, I hit preview with my connection down and I lost the lot. Basically the British Government did negotiate with terrorists, made a lot of concessions, let people out of jail who deserve to stay there and generally swallowed a lot of VERY bitter pills. The peace process there proceeds in fits and starts, but some kind of corner has been turned and I am optimistic for the future.
I don’t really have much to add except that I have more hope and faith in human nature than you seem to. I assume that some Palestinian parents are fucking sick of the whole thing, and given a shred of hope of a future for their children they will teach them to stay away from the militants. Same goes for the schoolteachers.
Before the Intifada, 125000 Palestinian workers had jobs in Israel. How could that work, if they were hell-bent on murder and mayhem? Isn’t it possible that some of them just wanted to work and feed their families, and didn’t give a shit about destroying Israel?
(Something I really do wonder, is how did the Palestinian workers interact with the Israelis? Are we talking full-time mutual detestation here? Was there not a single friendship struck up?)
'Fraid I’m going to have to bow out for a few days - I’m flying out to an oil rig and I’m not sure when I’ll be back.
Dishonest Logic Follows
or
God, what don’t you get???
(simplified explenations are in parens)
Originally Posted by ** Tabby_Cat**
-There is no defence of “defence of property” in homicide.
(‘Defense of Property’ is not a valid reason for homicide)
-That said, in the facts of the case,
(that said, even if there were a defense of property for homicide, it would depend on if the facts of the circumstance, that it, you would need to be defending both your PROPERTY and your LIFE at the same time, there is no defense of property.)
you can clearly see that defence of property,
(which doesn’t exist)
if it existed,
(it still doesn’t exist)
would have been made out on the facts.
(Would have been proven by statutes such as the castle doctrine: ie. that you were in your HOUSE and fearing for your life)
It wasn’t.
(it wasn’t)
And self defence didn’t work, either.
(and it wasn’t self defense either)
Ergo, your statement is proven false.
(Thus, you’re wrong.)
P.S. In case you are unclear, the Castle Doctrine is not about defense of property. It is about having a legitimate fear for your life and not being expected to flee your home. If someone invades your home and you can’t convince the jury that your life was in danger, you’re still a murderer if you shoot them.
P.P.S. This thread is about moral outrage at people who gunned down a pregnant woman and her children at point blank rage. This is indeed a black and white issue, and you don’t even have the illusion of legality to stand on in claiming that she deserved, in any way shape or form, to die. In other words, why exactly are you trying to make the argument that MURDERING women and children is somehow ambiguous?
P.P.P.S. Keep ignoring my posts as I’ve clearly shown myself to be a dishonest irrational weirdo. And I’m sure that the valid points I make evaporate with the morning dew without your august recognition of their validity.
Tabby_Cat if I put any words into your mouth feel free to correct me, but it seemed pretty clear to me what you were getting at…
matt a few points:
Ireland didn’t have a socio-religious commitment to the genocide of the British, I suggest that factor plays a pivotal role in this current conflict.
I have great faith in human nature, I just have very little faith in a society where belief in suicide bombings is rampant… I can find more up-to-date statistics on the Palestinian population’s feelings towards suicide bombings, but in any case, how large a percent of their society has to support it for the situation to be fucked up?
If 99 percent of them wanted to kill civilians?
75 percent?
50 percent?
10 percent?
I think as long as there is a sizeable portion of their society which wants civilian carnage, and that same portion will murder other Palestinians who publicly say they want peace… as long as that’s the case, it’s going to be very difficult to achieve peace.
And yes… that’s what’s such a shame in my mind. The two societies really can form a wonderful and mutually beneficial relationship… I just don’t see a way around a society which resorts to Intifada over political slights, and which, at least as far as I can see, is very very easy to whip up into a homicidal froth.
Simply as a side note, I’m reasonably sure that a Palestinian anti-war movement would be big news… call me faithless, but until I see a news report about parents and teachers who’re trying to stop the indoctrination of hate, I won’t believe they’re really making much of a difference in the population as a whole.
Hope your business trip goes well, catch ya when I catch ya.
So the pregnant woman can’t even have a memorial service.
Two Palestinian gunmen, dressed as women, opened fire at mourning people. They were killed by Israëli security guards.
Families with babies hit the soft sand dunes the moment they heard the crackling sound of gunfire that came from the nearby Palestinian town of Khan Yunes.
No matter what your stance on the relations between Israel and Palestine you have to agree that for either side to engage in conduct of this sort is absolutely revolting, on a fundamental level those who commit and support such actions are scum .
There is moral relativism at work which is, at least in effect, anti-Semitic in nature. Observe, in the wake of this, how many calls there are to stop Palestinian violence. Then question how many responses there would be if the IDF attacked a funeral procession in Palestine. Will there be condemnation of the PA in the UN for this? If the IDF opened fire on a funeral procession in Palestine would there be UN condemnation?
Why does this not produce moral outrage in every civilized soul?
Why the double standard?
Where to, from here, if terrorism doesn’t stop?
With all respect to matt , maybe sometimes you can’t get there from here, maybe sometimes it is valid to tell a make a cease fire a pre-condition for negotiations… I don’t know…
I’m going to jump in here with some random comments. (NooneWhat the heck! No invitation for me?! I’m mortally insulted!)
It already told. And your ideologue, if well meant, has absolutely nothing to offer the Palestinians but trading one kind of self imposed misery with another.
While we don’t agree on the root cause of the Palestinian Arabs current situation or who’s ultimately to blame, or what could be done to help resolve the problems, I think most people agree that their current situation is one to be little envied. It’s just that all the things the Palestinians seem to do to get them out are really vile, evil and above all so incredible stupid that it does nothing but push them further down the cesspool (cheering Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait, celebrating the 9/11 attacks, murdering small children and pregnant women, planting bombs in school busses, etc. etc.; you have to be absolutely brain-dead if you think things like this are going to earn you any friends, outside the gang of perverted moral degenerates) – and further that they waste no opportunity to refuse any life lines thrown to them, e.g. walking away from (or more often bombing away from) the multitude of peace proposals, the last under Clinton.
Talking of perverted moral degenerates. sevastapol I have more than a little difficulty following your reasoning, here and elsewhere in the thread - mostly I fear because I labour under wishful thinking as to your actual meaning. Are you actually saying a two year old girl could be considered a legitimate assassination target because she is guilty of squatting?!
They don’t even have to look beyond their own religion, to Christianity or Hinduism, if that’s what makes them so nauseous. A great Afghan and Pashtun leader, Badshah Khan, fought alongside Ghandi using solely non-violent tactics based on Islam. I find it a thing of supreme sadness that more than 70 years after this great man of Islam started his work; for many it still comes as a surprise to hear of Muslims that subscribe to a creed of non-violence – even one inspired by the concept of Jihad (and that his story should be found on a site dedicated to forgotten history). Still nobody can resurrect his spirit but the Muslims themselves.
“There is no- thing surprising in a Muslim or a Pathan like me subscribing to the creed of non-violence.” He was an ally of Gandhi and once persuaded 100,000 of his countrymen to lay down their arms and vow to fight nonviolently. His profound belief in non-violence came from the depths of his experience and his belief that these principles lay at the heart of Islam.
Khan and Gandhi worked hand in hand using the tactic of non- violence to free their land from British oppression. Khan opened schools and brought women out of their homes to become a part of society. For over two decades Khan and his followers dominated the Northwest Frontier without resorting to violence as a means for independence.“ http://taint.org/2001/12/12/003505a_mail.html http://www.peacehost.net/PacifistNation/khan.htm
Let’s hope that soon the Palestinians will wake up and smell the coffee and get a fucking clue - then perhaps Badshah Khan last words will sprout in Gaza and the West Bank too.
"No true effort is in vain. Look at the fields over there. The grain sown therein has to remain in the earth for a certain time, then it sprouts, and in due time yields hundreds of its kind. The same is the case with every effort in a good cause.’’ Gum. We’re much alike. While I may have moved since, I too started my political life on the left wing. It’s not us that have abandoned the left but the left that has abandoned us. For what profess itself to be the left today has forgone all pretences of fighting for the downtrodden masses for the “privilege” of being able to conjure up more or less inventive reasons why it’s ok to murder innocent civilians and small children. What is left is little more than an empty shell of knee-jerk anti-Americanism, anti-Israelism, anti-anything’ism, and a perverted glorification of and longing for the violence of revolution without the ideals of revolution.
(…also Dutch are my favourite Europeans; I always end up partying out with you on vacations – whether camping on vacant beaches in Portugal, run down hostels in New Zealand or upscale hotels in Greece, you’re there with a joint and a smile)
Someone new fishing for an emotional response! Glad to oblige, the perverse, moral degeneracy you seek is found in those who elect to put civilians and children into the front line of an illegal occupation. The people who make that policy have accepted that some will die.
It’s an act of evil genius to exploit the emotional responses of former lefties like Rune. That way, hard policy is disguised as compassion.
