Would he be old enough to understand this:
Get someone to watch him and then, say “Sorry you can’t come with Mommy, 'cause of the tantrum you had, when you can assure me you can behave you can come with Mommy again. I’ll be back in a hour” Or something like that.
Or is he not old enough to get that concept yet? Perhaps if he’s old enough to understand there are not only short term but long term consequences to his behaviour he’d get it. But I don’t know if he’s too young to understand that.
Been there done that, more than once with two strong willed kids.
TriPolar’s post does carry some absolute truthisms in it, I could see myself in his post, triggering fail fail fail and then wondering later what the hell went on here.
The next time I sensed a dangerous interlude approaching like the OP’s I wouldn’t have been drawn into a discussion about buying a toy, time outs, count downs and later puniishments or taking toys at home hostage (things I have overheard in public). I may have stopped and admired the toy with him, checked it out,let him fantasize a little about it, own the dream in a sense. I’ve said stuff like, oh way cool I like that one too, let’s put it on your list for Santa. Then you start to move on, let him take a minute to put it back on his own, than get the hell out of the store! 
The boy needs shoes–his feet, at least, have to go!
I love the idea of just not buying kids things “spontaneously” when they are out–impulse shopping is one of the most dangerous and self-destructive habits out there–I’m 34, and half my peers are drowning in debt because of impulse purchases–it’s not that they went to Tahiti, it’s that they always spent 10% more at the grocery store than they meant to. I used to be drowning in debt for the exact same reason.
The reason we impulse shop is that we learn to love getting things, not having things. He didn’t want to have the fire truck, he wasn’t thinking that far ahead. He wants to GET a fire truck, to have that moment of “wow, now it’s mine! Whoo-hoo!”. That’s a dangerous emotion because it’s fleeting and insatiable–the only way to feel it again is to get something new.
I know it’s dangerous to say “when I have kids . . .”, but one thing I am resolved to never do is buy my hypothetical kid a Happy Meal. We might go to McDonald’s and buy a cheeseburger, fries, and small drink, but I’ll pay more to avoid the toy. I think that sort of thing–the small little object that really isn’t fun to have, just to get–is where we start training this emotional response.
I had to stop right there. Are you fucking kidding me? No, really, I’ve got to know if you’re joking.
Allow me to apologize. The non-serious parts of my posts clearly overshadowed the message underneath, which is my fault. I certainly could have clarified my intentions at the beginning of the post, and followed up with TriPolar style absurdism after making my intention clear. Instead, I did the reverse, and the message was lost.
I do not think you are a bad parent at all. I noted that later, but I’d already given the wrong impression. I do think you are trying to hard to be a good parent for no gain. IMHO, four year olds cannot reason consistently. Your son didn’t reason that he could obtain a toy school bus by starting a public confrontation and conducting a contest of wills, he acted impulsively, as four year olds do. Your son is probably a nice child, something he would have picked up from you without any discussion of the matter. Children imitate their parents, and are driven to emulate them. Your behavior is much more of a factor than your words. That’s why good parents don’t find themselves telling their children to ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ later in life. And you don’t need to justify your directions to a child under the circumstances you posted. Until he is 18, you will have to make decisions for him, and there may not be the time, or the situation may not allow the reasoning process. As he gets older, reasoning will be more effective, and hopefully at 18 you won’t have say ‘Because I said so’. But at four, it’s likely to happen. And in the circumstances you describe, no one who’s opinion would be worth worrying about would think less of you faced with such a situation. Other parents who saw you and your son probably smiled as they recalled such incidents with their children.
My main point, not intended to be buried in an insulting tone, is that it is an unimportant incident in the life of your child. If you are lucky, you will face Calvin-like mischief many times, it is the sign of an active, imaginative mind. He will likely make a few slightly serious mistakes, but learn from them as well. If your concern for your child continues through his life, he may avoid all the truly serious mistakes of youth.
I’m a little baffled that anyone thinks I was serious about the ‘shoplifting’ part, since I noted my certainty that it was an omission in the narrative, but I suppose at that point my motives were already questionable. So let me state now, I did not ever think you stole the school bus from the store.
You just won’t be able to prepare for every circumstance where a four year old may act at an emotional level, well fed and well rested or not. He wasn’t thinking about the school bus he already had, or the rules you instituted for earning a new toy, he just saw something shiny and attractive and wanted it. Even as adults it happens to all of us sometimes, we’re just better prepared to deal with it.
Some people may disagree with me about this next part, and I accept that. I think you can poison the well yourself by the over use of reason and conditioning in cases like this. It’s not about it never working, its the potential downside of a child being conditioned to the wrong thing under stressful circumstances. He might learn that there is a way to act to please you, independently of your meaning. He could end up humoring you under the circumstances and behave in an entirely different manner out of your presence. The message can get lost in his emotional reaction, and the bad experience remains as an unclear concept apart from the message you intended. I have no idea if that was the case here, but I think that’s why the ‘Just say no’ approach works so well.
So please forgive me for being me. I’m just Calvin half a century later. And don’t fret so much about your parenting skills. You love your son, and care for him, and bear the concern for his well being. Those are the far more important aspects of good parenting than a toy school bus. And that is what he will remember later in life when the school bus is long forgotten.
norinew, I no longer have children, I have two adult boys though. Aside from a single incident involving a Ninja Turtle, this circumstance didn’t create a problem because they were told ‘no’, and had to live with it. But there were plenty of other situations to deal with. And even in their 20s, they are still challenging sometimes, but I smile when I recall the trials and tribulations of early parenthood. They may still make mistakes, but they show me over and over again that they’ve learned the great lessons of life, be honest, defend the weak from the strong, and the only true mistakes are the ones you can’t repair. I hope I haven’t made one of those types of mistakes here.
TriPolar, I, for one, appreciate your clarification.
Like you, I have grown children (23 and 19YO) but I also still have a child at home (10YO as mentioned previously).
Absolutely no snark intended, but in the future, you may wish to keep in mind that any form of criticism is much less easily received when it begins with a perceived insult (“you’re not a very good parent. . .”). People are much more receptive to criticism when you start out by telling them what you think they’re doing/have done right.
Of course you are right. I too readily forget that I when entering posts, people can’t see my expressions or hear the inflection in my voice that distinquishes the serious from the inane. :DIf you buy me that school bus, I’ll do better in the future:dubious:
I’m not going to tell you one more time, young man! You may not have that school bus! 
I like the idea of telling the kids the ground rules before you go out but we can all learn from our mistakes, hindsight, and the mistakes of others.
Of course you will have to remind them (repetition+++)
A friend would tell her kids to behave in the store or the spider would get them .If they acted up she would pinch them…“oops you upset the spider”…I liked that.
Also, like your friends I hated when outsiders chimed in …well meanings onlookers who would say," Oh the poor child!" (like you were torturing the kid).
I had this experience before and took the kid out screaming and on the way home thinking about what a spoiled brat he was and then when I arrived home asleep in the car seat he looked like a little angel and I would forget about the incident.
I also want to thank you for your clarification. If I ever see you in person, I’ll be sure to have a bag full of school buses.
I would’ve come back and said that earlier, but we went out for the evening. (The kid was great, too.)
You can not inflict your child upon others. If he acts up in a store or a restaurant, you quietly and calmly take him outside. You do not reward poor behavior. That is not how you control it.
I think you did an excellent job. Like TriPolar I have ex children and they very quickly learned that shopping with different people meant different expectations. If you calmly and, the biggest factor, consistently enforce the rules they will figure out what to do and how to maximize their benefit.
Kids are very self motivated and the only trick is making sure that what works for you pays off for them too. Your friends advice may give short term peace but sticking out the occasional inevitable tantrum will pay off for you, and sooner than you think (although not as soon as you would like)
I think you did the right thing.
Last night at a rather nice restaurant my son pulled a crying fit over dessert. I had already explained that NO we were not getting dessert, maybe something at home, but not at the restaurant. (My dad was already flipping out at the $7.00 for three soft drinks, and this was my parent’s birthday dinner for me, but even without expense no one wanted dessert, especially not me.) When dessert time came my son started to order and I interjected that NO, we would not be having any.
My son who is six and normally well behaved pulled a whining fit, and I took him outside. He was angry, he was sarcastic, he was crying. My dad wanted to let him order something to resolve the situation, and was angry then sulky that I refused. My dad always caves in to my son’s tears, in situations that I never would have been allowed to utter one word. I am resolute, but my dad’s spoiling is not helping things. My son and I did not return to the restaurant until he had calmed down and then gone to wash his face.
My mother and my partner (Dad to my son in description and function but not biology) back me up on this, but my Dad throws his own little tantrum about “just keep the peace let him have it”. I hate that my dad is undermining my parenting, but I just keep doing what my role models did, not what one of them is doing now.
Any advice from experienced Dopers? My son spends a part of every weekend with my parents, and time and time again Dad caves at the first sign of tears.
As a parent of an almost six-year old I think you’re a good parent!!
I, too, use the birthday list trick and it works perfectly. She forgets about what she wants or develops other interests before her birthday rolls around.
Just two minutes ago, though, she asked me to see her birthday list. I told her it was at work!
For day-to-day stuff like ice cream I just say, “not today”.
But sometimes I do buy her stuff spontaneously - just for fun and to teach her that one doesn’t have to be Mrs. No all the time. It makes her feel special. And then when I do say no, I remind her of the stuff I did get her.
I suspect you only notice problems like this when your son is with both of you. My ex gave in to tantrums ALL the time and my daughter continued them with him until she was 7. She didn’t have them with me past 4.
There are two things I would recommend:
The talk with your son will need to happen repeatedly. I don’t recommend that for your talk with your dad though
I just came in here to point out, to all parents, when you’re struggling with your kids in public, tantrums or gimmes or whatever, I know you feel the judgmental eyes of everyone within earshot upon you.
Please be aware, no one wants to interfere, that would only make what you’re doing harder, so we all remain silent.
But please, I’m begging you, know, truly KNOW that most everyone is applauding your efforts. Please don’t feel embarrassed, you have no need. Our eyes are on you because we’re fighting the urge to stand up and applaud. We don’t want to smile, wink or high five you, well we do, but we won’t since you’re hands are clearly full, distracting you isn’t going to help anyone.
Please, I’m begging you, don’t feel judged! We’re in awe of someone doing the right thing, I promise.
There should be a secret signal so we can offer you support without upsetting your interaction in any way.
I can’t tell the inflection of your voice, so I’m not sure what you intend to do with the bag of school buses if you meet me. But anyway, thanks for allowing me to explain. I hope you remember the great evening out long after you’ve forgotten the school bus incident.
If I could sum up my thoughts on this subject outside of the self-induced clamor:
Um, I think she was responding to your offer to ‘do better next time’ if she bought you the school bus.
She’s offering a whole bag of schoolbuses, in the hope that you’ll be much better, next time.
Or, I could be wrong.
Well that’s what I was hoping. But there are other ways to fight ignorance with a bag of school buses. I didn’t think overlyverbose was thinking of that, but it’s best to find out before a chance encounter.
And overlyverbose, you sound like a much better mom than norinew:p, who wouldn’t give me a school bus even if I earned it:dubious:
applause