Um… what?
I’d suggest you re-read the second paragraph, but the Coles’ Notes version is, no, I didn’t, because they weren’t unreasonably overbearing and controlling. As opposed to the type of parents being discussed.
Maureen: It’s ironic that you are telling catsix that she needs to learn more about Judaism. It’s apparent that you need to learn more about Judaism, too. You say
If you know so much about Judaism, why is it that you don’t know that conversion is a controversial issue within the Jewish community, and that many Jews don’t accept conversion at all? You can’t just declare yourself a descendant of Abraham, you know. While most secular Jews do generally accept converts as members of the community, there is definitely a pervasive and deep-rooted feeling that converts aren’t really Jews.
Maureen, although you are aknowledging the point, I still think you are missing it.
There are parents who advise their children, and are prepared to argue with them about it, and who feel, possibly justifiably, that they do know better than their children what is right for them. A lot of parental interference is motivated by a genuine desire for the child’s best interests, however irksome that may be to the child.
When the child doesn’t take the parents’ advice, the worst case scenario is that the parents will roll their eyes, say: “I told you so” when things go wrong, and bring the subject up at regular intervals over the next few years. The best result is when the parents decide to support their child in their decisions, even if the parent would have hoped for a different outcome.
This is not what is being discussed here. The OP (and catsix) are referring to situations where the parent is so unwilling to let their child live a life different to the one they had mapped out for them, that they are willing to jeopardize that relationship.
There are situations where the child has to make a choice between being the pawn of their parents, or cutting the cord in the interests of reclaiming their own adult lives.
The thing is, Maureen, is that parents aren’t just any other adult. They are adults who kno you incredibly well–they know your long running insecurities, your sensitve spots, your secret shames, your fears–they know how to hurt you in ways that coworkers or any but the very closest friends do not. When a person’s parents are willing to use all that knowledge to hurt them over and over and over again, as punishment when they wear the wrong thing to dinner or get the wrong sort of haircut or just as a constant reminder that they have that power and have no hesitation to use it–when your parents are people like that, seperating yourself from them is the only rational choice you can make, and one of the hardest parts about making that choice are the people who would never consider hurting their child, lashing out at their child, who simply can’t imagine any parent being that evil, accusing them of throwing a “temper tantrum” and not trying hard enough to work things out. No one makes the decision to sever ties with their family easily–whenever someone does, it can be assumed that it was not a reckless impulse (unless there is reason to suspect that particular person of utter flightiness)
Full disclosure–I had great parents, but I’ve been part of households where the parents were not ashamed to use every weapon in their arsenal to keep control.
**Maureen ** you are wrong, and you are coming down on **catsix ** harshly without knowing the details.
There are some parents who exist only to control, who can’t bear to see their children make decisions without them. **Manda ** **JO ** said it much better than I could, but sometimes, it’s not a temper tantrum (this is insulting and demeaning) but it’s for your sanity.
You see, it turns into a vicious circle. They tell you to do something, major like marrying a particular person, or minor, like cutting your hair exactly the way they say. You don’t do it. They give you a guilt trip. You either do or you don’t. Then they do it again. And again. And again. And every decision you make is wrong in their eyes.
I am living with my SO. I am financially solvent, there is food on my table, I am happy and healthy. And they still completely disapprove of my life simply because I am not living the life they wish me to.
They don’t look at my life with unbiased eyes and think “She’s doing well, I guess I was wrong, she’s not a complete failure.” They look at my life with eyes that say “She’s not married to a Punjabi boy with three kids, she doesn’t call herself Hindu, she’s failing at her life and she’s miserable.”
Do you understand what I say? It isn’t about us having a temper tantrum. It’s about 50-60 year adults having temper tantrums because they can’t get their way, and trying to be controlling influences in our lives.
**Catsix ** moved away, and so did I (although more like 100 miles). I had to threaten my parents with the police because they kept showing up at my workplace and grabbing me by the upper arm and trying to hustle me out of there. If **catsix ** and I told you the kind of emotional abuse that our parents heaped on us you would cry.
So please, butt out of our lives. Just because you had wonderful loving parents doesn’t mean that anyone else did. Just because they didn’t hit me or sexually abuse me doesn’t mean they hurt me more than anyone in my life. If you want, I will gladly start a new thread and list some of the things my mother did to try and keep me in my place, and you can see if it amounts to “eat your vegetables”. But don’t be fucking sarcastic of my experiences unless you’ve lived it.
Converting for a marriage is NOT taking it seriously. The only reason one should ever change religions is if something truly calls to you in that religion. And the mother has no right to demand anything like that. She is not going to live with her, raise children with this woman, and spend the rest of her natural life (hopefully) with this woman.
If this was happening in Canada I swear I know who this is.
It’s a shame that bigotry is so prevalent.
Elenia28 I’ve had friends in your situation (with exactly the same type of parents, strangely also Indian).
I hope you came out of that ok. I knew a women who didn’t quite leave the grasp of her parent’s will. She got an arranged marriage that didn’t work out. He used her for a green card, then moved his wife and kids from India under her nose and left her.
I’m very appreciative of my parents. They aren’t bigots. They don’t care that my GF is white. They didn’t care when my sister brought home black boyfriends (a small 5’ asian mom trying to talk to a big 6’ black guy is pretty funny to watch). All they did was support us to the best of their abilities. I can’t ask for more than that.
This is exactly the point. There are parents who will resort to extreme measures to control someone who is an adult and has the right to make their own choices regarding their lives.
There’s a difference between telling your adult child that in your opinion an inter-religious relationship is a bad idea and using everything you know about that adult child’s insecurities to try to end the relationship by any means necessary. Your (general sense) may not have to like it that you’re marrying a Jew/Catholic/Buddhist/Wiccan, but they do owe you the respect of accepting that it was your decision rather than throwing fits, saying things like ‘You break your poor mother’s heart.’ or ‘You’re not welcome at family functions with him/her.’ and generally going out of their way to meddle in what is not their business.
Including trying to decide who their adult children are ‘allowed’ to date.
Yeah, a lot of their control issues had to do with me not being a ‘proper daughter’. Never feminine enough, not interested in the right things, not married. My mother would heap food on me, call me an ingrate if I refused food, and then after badgering me into trying whatever it was, calling me a horrific fat pig. She would still do this if I didn’t have the ‘You start harping on me, and I’m walking out the door.’ rule now. It’s the only thing that allows me to visit her.
Dad can be even worse. Especially when he would call my home on Friday and Saturday evenings to berate me for not being home at say, 9:30 pm, telling me what an immoral lifestyle I must be leading and how guilty I would feel if he were calling to tell me that my mother was sick or that <insert beloved relative> had died.
They want absolute control of every aspect of my life, from what time I get up in the morning to how I cut my hair, to what clothes I wear. They also still ‘forbid’ me to drink any alcohol at all, or view movies rated R. They will use any emotional or manipulative ploy at their disposal to try to effect this control, even if it damages the hell out of me. You seem to think control freak parents don’t exist and that those who have them are just whiny brats. Maybe you should think again.
Not MARRIED?! You’re 26! In this day and age, that’s actually kind of young to be getting married.
Like others have said, there is a big difference between a parent “not approving” of an adult child’s life choices, and forcing them to live the life the parent wants them to live or else*.
*“or else” being any number of things, such as threats to cut their child off monetarily, making fun of them for personality traits (like a girl who is a tomboy, or a boy who is more feminine). Constant emotional bombardment is very hurtful, especially coming from a parent.
Growing up, their opinions matter to their children, and makeing a child feel like they’re not good enough is hurtful enough to leave permanent scars. I was lucky - my parents, though they didn’t approve of things I did/do (piercings, tattoos, etc), were more concerned with my actual well-being than in “what looked good.” Was I happy? Am I making enough money to pay my rent and eat? If I’m not, am I doing something about it?
Good parents should be concerned about their children’s lives. But they should never try to force their child into a mold they create, with no regard for their (adult) child’s desires for their own life.
I’m 23 years old, and my parents’ opinions matter to me, because they were never FORCED upon me. There were no ulitmatums (no “take that lip ring out or you’re not coming home for Thanksgiving”). Their opinions matter because the offer them because they care about my well-being and happiness, not because they want to change me.
Nope. I never claimed to be the font of all knowledge when it comes to Judaism. And yes, I’m aware that many Jews don’t accept conversion. But trying to tell someone that their religion and culture is insiginficant and has no bearing on an interfaith marriage is just as intolerant as saying “don’t marry my son.” Tolerance isn’t just respecting the beliefs of people who agree with me and insisting on respect from people who don’t. Tolerance is also respecting the faith of religions that I happen to disagree with. It’s not my faith, but it is theirs, and who am I to say they need to get over their silly selves? How can I demand respect from these people on my views if I refuse to respect theirs? That’s the main problem I had with catsix’s assertion. Black and white. She’s right, period. Anyone who disagrees is a poopyhead.
And yes, I’m aware of what conversion involves. I watched my BIL go through it with my SIL (she’s Jewish, he wasn’t). It was a huge decision, and in the end he decided he didn’t have the discipline it would take. And I found out it’s more than just a set of religious beliefs, it’s law, and how Jews live their lives on a daily basis. So yes, I do think that dismissing it as “it doesn’t even come into play,” is overlooking a large hurdle, and conveys a complete lack of understanding.
I’m sorry, where did I say that I did? Wait, lemme check…nope, never said that. My mom and I do have a good relationship. Now. But it was something we both had to work at. I’m speaking from experience when I say that parents can be just as fucked up and clueless as anyone. But I’m a firm believer that everyone deserves a second chance, if they want it.
Um. No. Actually, what I said was:
I can easily see how someone could confuse the two.
I’m sorry your parents are such control freaks. I truly am. I guess I’m having a hard time understanding how you can have your own place, your own life, and not be able to set limits on their interference. That’s not a criticism. Just a lack of understanding.
Catsix,
I just wanted to say that as much as anyone can, I know at least faintly how you feel.
Best wishes.
I’ve never offered this to anyone about this particular thing, but if you ever want to talk about it, I’d be glad to.
Also, I read a book called “Toxic Parents: Overcoming their hurtful legacy and reclaiming your life” by Susan Forward. I am not making ANY judgements about your healing process or where you are at it. But I thought this was a very good book.
-Meena
This is what makes me think you had good parents. If you can’t even comprehend our feelings then you could not have experienced it.
Telling your boyfriend that your mother-in-law must confirm to your lack of Judaism is real life. It’s his choice what he decides, which way. It may not be polite, but if he wants you then he will have to make some sacrifices.
Telling your adult son who no longer lives under your roof that he MUST marry a girl of the Jewish faith for your love is just WRONG.
Tell me Maureen, should I have married the Punjabi boy my parents found for me? Or should I reject the loving man who shares my life because he doesn’t share my parents’ faith and that pisses them off no end?
You do what you can, and sometimes they still show up and manage to get the landlord to let them in.
They do things like ‘You can’t see your little sister unless you…’ and fill in the blank.
It’s a shitty position to be in.
I’m sorry, Elenia28, what part of my post is unclear? I never said those two people should not marry each other. I never said the kid should do exactly as his mother says and dump that little tart. I said tolerance needs to exist on both sides. This girl loves her BF enough to want to share his faith with him; that’s quite a sacrifice. The mom needs to recognize it. Whether it’s to her liking or not. Kindly stop putting words in my mouth.
“When I was 17, I left home because my father didn’t know anything. When I returned home at 21, I was amazed at how much he had learned in 4 years.”
- Paraphrasing Mark Twain
Parents don’t know everything. But sometimes, they do know a bit more than kids would like to give them credit for. Sometimes even more than adult kids would like to give them credit for.
Some parents go way over the top in trying to help their kids see the “right way”. But this is almost always done out of love for the kids, not out of some deep seeded desire to control another person’s life. Even if you are an adult, you can still make bad choices and your parents are just trying to steer you in the right direction.
It sounds like catsix’s and Elenia28’s parents have gone off the deep end and they needed to get away for their own sanity. But don’t ever forget the motivation for that involvement.
Take a look at it from your parents’ point of view. They see you as throwing away your life and in some cases probably even condemning yourself to death for all eternity. If you had a loved one that was literally killing themselves, something tells me you would go to extreme measures to try and stop that.
The problem is, it’s no longer their job to do the steering. It’s not their life to live, for better or worse. Part of being an adult is having the right to make bad choices.
The motivation for that involvement is that they fucked up their lives and made poor choices, and are now determined to make my life be the choices they think they should’ve made for themselves.
And this gives them the right to be assholes?
Something tells me you’d be wrong. I don’t badger my sister to quit smoking, although that is ‘quite literally killing herself’ and I certainly wouldn’t tell her she’s an utter failure and a disappointment for not choosing the career I wanted her to have, nor would I disown her for being friends with a black man (something my parents did threaten her with).
Uh huh. And if you had someone harassing you, emotionally abusing you and attempting to interfere with how you lived your life, something tells me you’d do all you could to get away from them. I think that’s what **Elenia28 **and catsix are trying to say here.
On preview, I see catsix is saying pretty much that.
If the folks in this thread were talking about an emotionally abusive and controlling husband, would you be encouraging people to “see it from his side, he loves and wants to protect her”? A repugnant idea, no? How is it different?
Well, I am not married for the same reasons as whiterabbit-b/c my ex’s parents didn’t approve of the fact that I was “too” educated, wasn’t fair enough, our castes were different (I’m Brahmin, he’s not), we were from different parts of India (Maharashtra is too South Indian, lol), my parents weren’t rich enough blah blah blah. I think blaming it all on my ex’s parents would be a little much-although I did do that immediately following the debacle. The reality is that once you become an adult, you choose whether or not to indulge your parents demands. Since they gave him a choice between his inheritance and me-he chose to indulge the threat and ultimatum. So in my opinion-it is the child who doesn’t stand up to his overbearing parents that deserves most of the blame-not the parents themselves. You always have the choice to walk away. Realistically? My father would have much preferred me to have become an engineer like him and go on to medical school. I chose to study poli sci and eventually go to lawschool-a choice I made in no small part b/c he threatened to throw me out of the house unless I went to grad school. So I am the one that indulged that threat rather than stopping the cash flow-so if it sucks for me-then I have no one to blame except myself (actually, it ended up working out, I like the law but hey).
I do think that a lot of parents try to do good for their child but I guess I am sort of skeptical when the guidance flows out of extremely strict adherence to culture. No offense Maureen-but the caste system in Hinduism is also a way of life that would be much better LEFT BEHIND even if it is in the Bhagavad-Gita etc. etc…
Anyway, I also think it’s true that even if your child chooses you the parent/religion/etc. etc. over the “other” person/thing-there is always an undercurrent of resentment that it was brought to the point where the parent threw down an ultimatum such that you only got one or the other. And I am not talking about drugs/criminal stuff.
I’m afraid this doesn’t fly. The motivation for my parents’ involvment was because I was actually their niece. My mother had me illegitimately and my aunt and uncle adopted me specifically to save the family further embarrassment. They would have aborted me if they could. They didn’t tell me this, oh no. They just assumed I was the same slut (their word) my mother must have been, to be pregnant at age 16.
Maureen, I apologize if it seems I’ve been putting words in your mouth. It’s just that it’s very hurtful when parents punish their kids by say, not attending the wedding, because they don’t approve of the match. It seemed to me you were implying that because it was the mother’s religion the kids should respect it and not wed because of her wishes.
I mostly agree – but I still think that if blame must be placed, it starts with the parents. Take overcontrolling parents plus a spineless guy (such as my ex) and you have a recipe for disaster. He sure hid his lack of spine well or things never would have gotten as far as they did.