Parents who try to control their kids' lives

[GaWd]

@Elenia28

Ok I think we are arguing over two different things here.

No, I don’t think so. You’re arguing that parents who object to interfaith marriages of their offspring are wrong no matter what and that it is “controlling their children’s lives”. While I don’t necessarily agree with these types of parental objections, I certainly understand why some parents in some religio-cultural groups hold these opinions and stances.

You said something to the effect of I should learn to accept the consequences. Perhaps you weren’t addressing this comment directly to me. I simply answered that I had made this decision with regards to my faith, and I had accept my consequences. I’m not sure what your answer to that means, and it seems you are just as ready to argue when there was no arguement.

If one is being overly sensitive, defensive and personalizing the debate, then yes, that is what I said. If, however, one is approaching the debate without being overly reactive, or defensive, then, no that’s not what I said. Both you and catsix seem to personalize every aspect of this argument.

My point, which was lost on you, was that ANYONE either coming from a traditional background, or entering into a relationship with someone of a traditional background(inter-racial, inter-faith, trans-atlantic, punjabi, hindi, jewish, christian, catholic, etc), need to be able to accept the consequences of such a position.

Not you in specific, I don’t know you, don’t care a whit about you, didn’t and couldn’t know that you were involved in an inter-faith relationship. What’s more important is that it was not necessary for debate of the subject.

As for the second paragraph, you are talking as if I were an outsider. I am not simply talking about the Jewish faith and you have made it extremely narrow by (apparently) limiting it to that. I was speaking of ANYONE who gets involved with a person whose parents wish them to marry within their own culture. Do you understand? You keep bringing up Jewish people but that was simply a starting point for me. You are right. As I have no interest in a Jewish man I have no place to argue. But I do have a place to argue about interfaith relationships. I am talking in the broad sense, you are limiting me.

You may feel free to change the word “Jewish” to whatever faith or culture you please as long as those long-standing and somewhat stubborn traditions exist. I spoke on being Jewish and interfaith because I know it well. Not only do I know the interfaith part of it, but I know of the ultra-strict portion of the culture as well(as well as the original OP which happened to be about a Jewish mother having a ffucking cow over the Goy Fiancee). It is not limiting at all.

Also I never said not to keep it in mind! I simply said that interfaith relationships (not just Jewish!) are first and foremost the decisions of the two people involved. It is their choice whether or not to involve the parents.

Bupkis! The parents will be involved as it is their offspring! They will have opinions because it is their offspring! Further, to assume that they will not is not normal, not typical, and for all intents and purposes, daffy. Do you really expect your parents to keep their tongues held unless you ask for input? You want a “don’t speak unless spoken to” kind of relationship with them?

As an adult you can choose to heed the advice and opinions of your parents or you can cast them off, but don’t expect them to remain silent. I find that far from realistic, personally, but I accept that all people are different and I no longer try to understand peoples’ interpersonal relationships when it comes to the family unit.

I think you have this hype that I am somehow sticking my nose into all Jewish people’s business. I ask you who has the chip on their shoulder. And to prove it, I will no longer argue with you at all. I’m done. You may think as you wish.

Not at all.

Who has the chip on their shoulder indeed. :dubious:

Sam

[willrandolf]

@catsix

You tell me how that even compares to having your parent sabotage your love life, and I’ll answer it.

Having spent 6 year in a Catholic school system, I can unequivically tell you that there are many, many ways to end up in Hell. At least according to the priests and nuns primarily responsible for my education. No, I don’t believe a word of it. But I can sure believe they believed it.

You may not see dating the wrong guy as a one way ticket down, but others sure do. And those others in some cases are your parents. They see you dating the wrong person as terminal as swallowing a bunch of pills.

No, I don’t defend it and I certainly don’t share that view.

Once again, just so I’m clear: It doesn’t make it right and it sure doesn’t excuse it.

Now, would you or would you not try to save a loved one’s life even if it meant you being considered an asshole? Now consider how you’d feel if your loved one asked you to come watch them kill themselves. Would you go and watch? That is what some people are asking of their parents when they marry someone outside their faith.

Once again, just so I’m clear: It doesn’t make it right and it sure doesn’t excuse it.

[catsix]

GaWd said:
Both you and catsix seem to personalize every aspect of this argument.

The idea was to point out to Maureen that there really is such a thing as an overbearing, overcontrolling, fucktard of a parent, since she seemed to come into this thread thinking that the kids were merely being brats and having a ‘tantrum’ if they thought it wasn’t the parent’s position to tell them how to live their lives as adults.

[Syntropy]

No, no. I thought you personally were throwing a tantrum. I went to that thread and read the entire thing through, twice. I don’t think they’re throwing a tantrum. And, as I said earlier, I think the mom is being out of line. But I do understand her position.
I think you are personalizing this issue because of your history with your parents and are ignoring the very real stigma which exists against marrying outside the Jewish faith. Whether you think it should be or shouldn’t be, there are reasons it’s discouraged. Your personal experiences, while they sucked, have absolutely no bearing on those reasons. I hate that you went through and are still going through this, and again, I’m sorry for belittling it. But the MIL’s concerns are valid. How she is expressing them is wrong.

[catsix]

willrandolph said:
Now, would you or would you not try to save a loved one’s life even if it meant you being considered an asshole? Now consider how you’d feel if your loved one asked you to come watch them kill themselves. Would you go and watch? That is what some people are asking of their parents when they marry someone outside their faith.

Your comparison is still bullshit.

Maureen said:
But I do understand her position.

Where I disagree is on the idea that she’s entitled to have a position of any relevance regarding the relationship between two other adults, whether those adults are related to her or not.

But the MIL’s concerns are valid. How she is expressing them is wrong.

The first time she is told to butt out, she should stop expressing them at all. Or better yet, keep her opinion of their relationship to herself until she is asked for it.

[GaWd]

@catsix

Where I disagree is on the idea that she’s entitled to have a position of any relevance regarding the relationship between two other adults, whether those adults are related to her or not.

And this is where your argument takes a turn for the unreasonable. Of COURSE a parent is entitled to have a position of relevance WRT her children’s choice in a mate. It may make no difference either way to the child what their parent thinks-the child is, afterall an adult now- but the parent is most certainly entitled to hold that position.

Or better yet, keep her opinion of their relationship to herself until she is asked for it.

Read my previous post this afternoon. That is yet again unreasonable. This attitude that a parent should only speak about a subject when spoken to about it is ludicrous.

Obviously some parents won’t listen to or respect their children’s wishes no matter what, but to ask them not to have any opinion at all is more than likely undoable. In most cases, a parent has spent 18 or more years raising, nurturing, teaching and caring for their children. To expect them to just cut loose on their 18th birthday and no longer care what happens to the child or what they do with their lives is more than ludicrous…it’s not mammalian*.

Sam

*- I do understand that there is a percentage of parents that aren’t fit to care for sea monkies, let alone a human child, and this position for them is n/a.

[catsix]

GaWd said:
It may make no difference either way to the child what their parent thinks-the child is, afterall an adult now- but the parent is most certainly entitled to hold that position.

She’s entitled to having an opinion. She is not entitled to having that opinion considered or acted upon by another adult.

This attitude that a parent should only speak about a subject when spoken to about it is ludicrous.

When an adult wants advice regarding their love life, they can ask for it. Until then, it’s best for everyone else including their parents to stay the hell out of it.

Tell your friends, rant about it on your favorite message board, but don’t be shoving your advice down that adult’s throat because you happen to be their parent.

In most cases, a parent has spent 18 or more years raising, nurturing, teaching and caring for their children.

IMO, if they are ‘nurturing’ for 18 years, they’re doing it far too long. Kids start to assert independence pretty early, and by 18, being too involved in their life is not ‘nurturing’ it’s smothering.

[GaWd]

Let’s just say I vehemently disagree with just about everything you said and leave it at that. To go beyond that would make no sense.

Sam

[CrazyCatLady]

GaWd, I don’t think she’s saying they don’t get to have an opinion, but rather that they don’t have the right to expect that opinion to be a factor in any decision-making. In short, they don’t get a vote on the subject. Expecting to have a vote on the subject is, for many situations, over the line. And frankly, I agree with that viewpoint.

I understand that parents never stop wanting what’s best for their kids, never stop worrying about them. It’s the nature of loving someone. But I also understand there comes a point where you have to bite your lips, sit on your hands, and let them make their own decisions, for good or ill. That point should come on small matters fairly early on, imo. If your kids are just getting a taste of decision-making at the age of 18, I truly feel you’ve done them a disservice.

Offering your unsolicitied opinions on subjects where you don’t get a vote, especially if the opinions are negative and it’s something the other person feels strongly about, doesn’t really do much good for anyone. In most cases, it just causes pain and anger and damages the relationship. This holds true for pretty much any relationship. When you think your adult kids are making a big mistake majoring in linguistics, or buying that used car, or moving in with that tramp, it’s often best to keep those opinions to yourself. At the very least, you should state your piece once and leave it at that. The more you harp on the subject, the more damage you do to the relationship, and the more likely you are to alienate them altogether.

That is what I think the OP and Catsix are trying to say.

[catsix]

Yup, what I’m saying is that they are free to have any opinion they want, but they need to understand that they do not get a vote.

They also need to understand that if the matter is important to the adult child, and their opinion is nothing but negative, they should say their piece once in a tactful manner and then keep their yap shut unless asked.

if they continue to drone on and on about it, or worse, believe that their opinion counts as a vote (or the automatic majority vote), they’re being an overbearing shit head.

You do not get a vote in another adult’s life unless that adult chooses to give you one.

[Syntropy]

Would that that were the case, CCL. That’s not what I’m reading at all. More of a case of “This is my life, these are my choices, deal with it or stay out of my life.” Due to the fact that these two posters were both subjected by over the top obsessive parents, and they are not listening to any other points of view.
Oh, BTW, here is the original thread that spawned this wreck.

tomndebb put it quite succinctly:

The issue is quite a bit deeper than simply wanting her son to marry the “right kind” of girl. It is not the same as objecting to a girl for having an “inappropriate” career or being too poor (or too rich). Judaism passes through the mother, so if her son marries a Gentile, all the woman’s grandkids will not be Jewish unless they chose to convert at a later time. (And with her son apparently not being an observant Jew, himself, that is unlikely.)
I realize that from the outside, this looks like nothing more than snobbishness (and I think her behavior goes far beyond “mere” intolerance), but your sister needs to recognize that the mother considers her a threat to her culture and her descendants.

Both catsix and Elenia28 have rejected this out of hand as unreasonable, again because of their own relationships with their overbearing parents, and both GaWd and I have explained, in a few different ways, why this is not only unreasonable, but to be expected. But apparently, idealism is supposed to win out over reality.

It is unrealistic to expect a parent to blithely give up being a parent to their child, including giving advice, solicited or not, and ignore any choices they feel their child is making that may harm them. But, since you seem to believe it’s a peice of cake, please tell me; how did you do it? I’d like some insight, because I still call my stepdaughters up every couple weeks and ask how they’re doing, how their jobs are going, etc. They’re 22 & 20. And if they’re having problems, I try to help them with those problems. They certainly don’t always take advice, but I sure as hell don’t wait for them to ask for it. So, if you have some way to stop, by all means, let me know.

The personal experiences of catsix and Elenia28 don’t come into play, here. Neither do mine. It has nothing do do with “having a vote” as to who this woman’s son is marrying. I have been trying to explain, it goes much deeper than that. Whether the OP or catsix want to acknowledge it.

[Guinastasia]

It’s not the woman’s concerns, maybe as much as her actions. I don’t care WHAT religion or culture you come from, you don’t throw a tantrum and make a scene at a goddamn funeral!

If she has a problem with this relationship, that’s one thing-but treating the girl like shit is wrong, period.

[Zoe]

Normal parents will always care about their children and what happens to them, GaWd. And no one is saying that they aren’t to have opinions. But one of the most loving things a parent can do is to allow their adult child to learn from her or his mistakes and learn to trust their own decision-making abilities.

Of course that doesn’t start suddenly on the 18th birthday. It is a matter of gradual release that usually begins in childhood with allowing them to cross the street by themselves the first time.

You can still have some input, but it is much more subtle. My dad would preface things with, “I know this is none of my business, but have you thought about what will happen if -----?” And then he would ask a question in a way that would get me to look at something that I might not have thought about. But he would never have denigrated me by implying that my judgment was inadequate.

My mother was a different story. She actually said that I didn’t have the right to be wrong. (Of course, “wrong” was what was wrong according to her way of thinking which was as imperfect as any other human being.) I was forty years later that I found out that there was a name for her particular mental disorder: Narcissism.

Maureen: And it was catsix and Elenia28. Not tinkertoy. Doofus.

Actually, I wasn’t responding to you about “temper tantrums,” but to what Tinkertoy said:

If anyone thinks that I was throwing a tantrum to sever all ties then so be it. My life is mine and I will live it for me not someone else.

My comments are not always about you, Maureen.

Maureen: Oh, good. I’m so glad the thread is being dragged back to this level. catsix and I were actually starting to understand each other, and heaven knows, we can’t have that.

I assume it is still okay to make comments on the topic of the OP: Parents Who Try to Control Their Kids.

[Syntropy]

@Guinastasia

It’s not the woman’s concerns, maybe as much as her actions. I don’t care WHAT religion or culture you come from, you don’t throw a tantrum and make a scene at a goddamn funeral!
If she has a problem with this relationship, that’s one thing-but treating the girl like shit is wrong, period.

Yes, and both those points were acknowledged here.

Zoe, you quoted me, so I thought you were talking to me. As for the OP, she was specifically talking about the thread in MPSIMS. And, sorry, I’m not going to say the mom has no reason to be upset; she does.

Look, everyone here is trying to make the point that intolerance sucks. No one questions that. But you’re being just as intolterant by refusing to see that woman’s POV. The fact that she’s going way too far is not even in question. However, by digging in your heels, you’re being just as closed minded as she is. Yes. She should be willing to accept what her future daughter in law is offering and be happy that she’s willing to do that much. Lots of women probably wouldn’t be. By the same token, you should practice what you preach. Be a bit more tolerant, and try to see why this is so important to the mom. Or you’re no better.

[catsix]

Maureen said:
and they are not listening to any other points of view.

You are the one who is not listening.

tomndeb said:
Judaism passes through the mother, so if her son marries a Gentile, all the woman’s grandkids will not be Jewish unless they chose to convert at a later time.

And although she may not like it, it is not up to her to decide who her son marries and who he has children with. She may not have to like that, but she damn well does have to accept it.

Maureen said:
It has nothing do do with “having a vote” as to who this woman’s son is marrying. I have been trying to explain, it goes much deeper than that.

Nope, she wants the only vote. That’s what makes her an overbearing fucktard.

She should be willing to accept what her future daughter in law is offering and be happy that she’s willing to do that much.

Especially considering she has no actual right to expect her future daughter in law to offer her a damn thing.

e a bit more tolerant, and try to see why this is so important to the mom. Or you’re no better.

What about what’s important to the son? He should not have to live his life based on what’s important to his mother, Maureen. I see why it’s so important to her, but what I can’t see is why you seem to be so fucking focused on appeasing the mother.

[Syntropy]

Oh, but I have listened. I’ve listened to you try to apply your personal experience to this situation for the past two days. And it doesn’t work. I think you need to actually read that thread. In particular, what Zev Steinhart said about being Jewish, and more, being a Jewish parent:

The main measure of success that I will use in my life is not how much money I made, how well I perform in my career, how well I lived, how many houses I owned or even whether or not people liked me. The main measure of success for me, is that my children grow up to be good people and Torah-observant Jews. That’s my main goal in life. If I fail in that, then it really doesn’t make a difference what else I do in my life… I will have failed in my primary goal. If I succeed there, then anything else is simply gravy.

I certainly have to live MY life as a good Jew, but if I don’t properly transmit those values to my children and my children’s children, then my success as a Jew is incomplete, since the transmission of our beliefs and values to our children is a vital part of being a good Jew.

Whether you agree with that or not, that is what it boils down to. Whether you like it or not, Judaism is not just about how you pray. And yes, it does go so far as to involve laws about marriage. Who are you to say it’s wrong? Who are you to judge someone else’s culture? I’m not focused on appeasing the mother. I’m focused on trying to get you to see far enough past your own situation to understand that it just doesn’t have any bearing in this particular case. Please get some help to get beyond these issues you have with your parents. No one should be that unmovingly judgemental at the age of 26. Well. At any age, really.

[Syntropy]

Fuck, and I screwed up Zev Steinhardt’s name. Apologies.

[catsix]

Fuck you, Maureen.

You’re apparently just another overbearing cunt who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anything other than what ‘mommy’ wants for her ‘little boy’.

This guy is an adult. If he wants to raise his kids as scruffy headed lion tamers, that’s up to him. His mother, as much as she may not like it, has to fucking accept that she does not get a vote in the matter and shut her goddamn pie hole.

She also needs to not make scenes at funerals and verbally attack the son’s girlfriend.

[Syntropy]

@catsix

Fuck you, Maureen.

Not even with a stolen dick. You’ve demanded the reasoning behind the actions of a parent involving themselves in a child’s life. I and others have attempted to explain them. Not all involvement by a parent is wrong or bad. In fact, it’s even been explained (good job, too, Sam, forgot to say) why it isn’t even natural to not be involved.

@catsix

You’re apparently just another overbearing cunt who doesn’t give a rat’s ass about anything other than what ‘mommy’ wants for her ‘little boy’.

And you’re apparently someone who has no clue what it is to be a parent, much less what makes a good one. So I’ll take your judgement for what it is; uninformed and pretty much worthless.

[GaWd]

Wait, who’s being a cunt here? Oh, right. :rolleyes:

Give up Mo. Some people fail to see any other side but their own. In this case, Zev and I and you understand what exactly is going on. Unfortunately others don’t quite understand the gravity of the situation, nor do they know fuck-all about the culture on which they are commenting.

Sam