The above, Maureen, is often called moral relativism. There are some things that are just plain WRONG, culture or no culture. (And I’m not referring to this specific belief, just about religion and culture in general). Murder is wrong. Rape is wrong. Even if it were a part of someone’s culture.
Hell, female genital mutiliation is part of some cultures!
catsix and I don’t often see eye to eye, but I’m with her one-hundred and ten percent on this one. I don’t think she needs to get help. Obviously, she’s found the best solution to dealing with her family.
Just because someone is family doesn’t mean that we have to love, or tolerate them. And I say this as someone with terrific parents.
Some people don’t DESERVE their children’s respect.
I didn’t demand the reasoning for anything. I said that this kind of overinvolvement in an adult’s life by their parent is a really fucking nasty thing for a parent to do, and that mommy should butt the hell out.
It doesn’t matter one whit to me what her reasons for making herself an unwanted buttinski are, she is still wrong.
And if anything, if that’s her reasoning, her actions are only going to make things worse.
For example, let’s say, I come from parents who are extremely devout, strict, traditional Catholics. The old-school, pre-Vatican II, no meat on Fridays, Mass in Latin, Catholics.
They raise me to be one, and it is extremely important to them that I also follow in their ways and raise my children as Catholics.
Well, then I meet and fall in love with -gasp!-a Protestant!!!
And my mother treats him like shit, screams and makes scenes in public. All because she’s truly, deeply worried and upset that my children will not be raised as good Roman Catholics.
Do you know what my response would be? “See ya later mom!”
All that would accomplish is me completely rejecting that background. Because when someone starts demanding I do something, I have a contrary streak that makes me want to do the exact opposite.
Same with this woman. All she may end up doing is pushing her son away even further. Her concerns may be real, but she’s screwing the pooch if she thinks this is an appropriate way to voice her concerns.
[QUOTE=Maureen]
Would that that were the case, CCL. That’s not what I’m reading at all. More of a case of “This is my life, these are my choices, deal with it or stay out of my life.” Due to the fact that these two posters were both subjected by over the top obsessive parents, and they are not listening to any other points of view.
[quote]
Well, on my monitor, it looks like they’re trying to clarify and explain their posts, and you’re sitting there shrieking about how they’re not listening. Frankly, I think neither side is truly hearing the other, and you’re all just talking past each other.
Nobody is saying this lady doesn’t have the right to see the girl as a threat to her family and culture. She can be as threatened as she wants. But if she wants to keep a good relationship with her son, she needs to find some way of being at least somewhat civil about the situation. The reality is, when you put your grown children in the position of having to choose between you and someone or something very important to them, you’re quite likely to lose. That’s what the OP was saying, that the woman in the referenced thread is running the risk of losing her son forever by forcing him to choose.
Again, you’re just not fucking listening, because you’re too damn busy flying off the handle about nobody is listening to your point. Nobody is saying you should stop caring about your child, or worrying about him, or giving him advice. What I am saying is that you have to learn to make the shift to caring and worrying and giving advice in the same way you would to any other adult you care about. Nobody ever said it was easy to stand back and let your kid possibly fall on his face. It’s probably the hardest thing a parent can ever do. But you know what? Nothing about being a good parent is easy. It ain’t a job for wimps, which is one of many reasons I have no interest in taking it on.
You know what else? The hardest things for us to do are often the most important things for us to do. It’s easy to bluster and bullshit and make excuses for ourselves. It’s goddamn hard to look someone in the eye and say, “I was a complete asshole, what I did was inexcusable, and I’m sorry,” but taking responsibility for our actions is vital to our growth as human beings. It’s often easy to lie and difficult to tell the truth about things we’re not happy about, but being honest with people is vital to our characters and our relationships. What’s easy isn’t always what’s good. It’s a cliche, but it’s also reality.
Again, we’re looking at two seperate issues here. You’re talking about whether the mom in question has a right to be worried and upset that her son is, in effect, choosing to leave the culture he grew up in. And yes, that issue has nothing to do with having a vote on who he marries. That issue is about her perfectly valid feelings. It is also not the issue the OP and others are trying to discuss.
The issue they are trying to discuss is a)his right as an adult to choose to leave the culture and b) the actions his mother’s wholly understandable feelings have prompted. The issue, as laid out in the OP, is that he is a grown man and the decision to stay in the culture or to leave it is his, and his alone. Attempts at bullying or coercion on his mother’s part are attempts to usurp his right to make that decision, and they are completely inappropriate.
Not that it has really come up but I wonder how many people would actually be sympathetic to my & Elenia’s parents were they to insist upon the two of us marrying within caste. Because the concept of enforcing caste strictures seems to be met with shock, awe and disgust (and rightly so, I’m right there behind all of you that feel that way and for the record, so is my family) by almost everyone I meet. Would people on this board be arguing for the continuation of the caste system?
This is most definitely NOT a case of moral relativism. This is the case of two young adults who have massive authority problems when it concerns parents and parenting.
Hardly. If you don’t believe that parents have authority over their adult children, why bring up authority in a discussion about parents’ say in their adult children’s relationships?
Oh, horseshit, GaWd. You’re the one who said this is an issue of young adults with authority issues regarding parents and parenting. Well, what issues do they have, exactly? You imply that you don’t think they’re rejecting their parents’ rightful authority, so what’s your deal?
Good lord, you people make it sound like they’re a couple of 8-year-olds yelling “You’re not the boss of me!” I suppose, in a way, that is what they’re saying, but it seems like a pretty healthy thing to me. The parents in question aren’t the bosses or authority figures in any way, nor should they be. They’re just drawing a line in the sand for parents who won’t respect any other boundaries.
The line they’re drawing (you don’t have to like my decisions but you do have to respect them and my right to make them, and if you don’t I’m outta here) seems like a perfectly reasonable line to draw, frankly. My parents don’t like a lot of the decisions I’ve made over the years, and that’s okay. They have enough respect for me and enough common courtesy not to shit all over my life. If they did not, we wouldn’t have the relationship we have. I daresay we wouldn’t have a relationship at all.
Oh horseshit yourself. If you would read what has been said, you’d see that catsix and Elenia have had awful experiences with what they consider to be controlling parents. THat is the reason for the shrill reactionary tone in this thread. THey see what they perceive to be the kinds of situations they endured being perpetrated on another adult child and this provoked this thread.
THat is exactly the picture I’m getting.
I don’t see the healthiness you speak of. It seems much less like a line in the sand and more like an immovable, ungiving paint line. Which is fine by me, personally. But they ought not run in here determining by their standards what is acceptable behavior and what is not based merely on their own experiences.
Granted, in the original OP, we’re talking about a mother who goes over the line shitting on her future DIL, and while I certainly don’t condone fucking off at a funeral or whatever, I certainly understand the mother’s feelings on the matter. I understand where the woman’s feelings come from, and why she acted so stupidly. The quote Maureen used from Zev explains it very thoroughly.
Sam
P.S.- OneEye, stop being willfully obtuse. I don’t have time to play word games. What I said is pretty clearly not what you’re inferring that I said, nor was it my intention.
What word games? You’re the one saying that two adults who don’t want their parents harping on their relationship/career/lifestyle choices are having “authority issues”. Again, if you don’t believe that parents have authority over their adult children, then what on earth does authority have to do with this thread?
Interesting. I would have said it another way. I would have said that the parents have massive authority problems. The ways in which they handle their love and concern for the welfare of their adult children is inappropriate.
There are adult children with adult children and even adult grandchildren of their own who still have to enforce boundaries with a parent who has never dealt with her overpowering need to control. The problem does not know age limits. My mother is 91 and my oldest granddaughter is a very grownup 17.
It is often the parent who tries to control others that needs the counselling, not just the adult child who seeks to control her own life. As is often the case, however, it is only the adult child who seeks help.
But then she moved to the broader subject when she started the new thread in the Pit. She can correct me if I am mistaken, but I didn’t think the new topic is limited to that one situation.
[quote] Maureen: And, sorry, I’m not going to say the mom has no reason to be upset; she does.
<snip>
No, I don’t think I have addressed the subject of intolerance.
I never said that she didn’t have a right to be upset. And I didn’t say that I don’t see her point of view. (I haven’t even addressed that situation specifically.) Everyone has a right to his feelings. But wise parents don’t always act on them.
Maureen, I do practice what I preach. I wouldn’t dream of giving my step-children unsolicited advice.
Do you have me confused with someone else? Or maybe your comment was directed at someone else. Certainly I know what it is like to bite my tongue while someone I love makes painful decisions that aren’t mine to make.
I have very little respect for parents who put their own emotional needs above their adult children’s rights to be fully functioning, emotionally intelligent adults. The mother gets to make decisions about her life and the adult child gets to make decisions about his life. One life per adult person.
He did. Here’s an idea: actually go back and read where catsix and Elenia28 explained what their parents did that causes them to react in such a manner that they cannot view any parent involvement as anything but intrusive. As opposed to just, say, showing up on page two for the pile on.
Oh, and this right here:
Horseshit to you. In fact, gorilla shit, which stinks a hell of a lot more, and is ten times as messy. Let’s look at some examples of those calm explanations and clarity, shall we?
My favorite one so far:
next page: (oh, sorry, this contains a sample of my shrieking & not listening)
I just love that one.
Some more of me shrieking and not listening:
Both catsix and Elenia28 had severely dysfunctional relationships with their parents. No matter which party you are in a relationship like that, there are long term consequences which require resolution. If you cannot find them with the other party, you should try to find them within yourself. Many times, therapy is necessary to find that resolution and peace of mind. Or this transferrence crap will keep happening.
I have a healthy involvement in my children’s lives. If I find out they have a drug/alcohol/gambling problem, piling up huge mounds of debt, living in a gutter, etc., even after they’ve moved out of my home and are adults, I am not going to “sit on my hands and stay silent.” I am going to get involved. If they stop talking to me, but go on and have productive, happy, healthy, well adjusted lives, then so fucking be it. My job as a parent, despite what you may think, is NOT solely to feed, clothe and and pay for their education til they’re old enough to go out and do it for themselves.
Zoe, I appreciate what you’ve said. No, wise parents do not always open their traps, and I did not mean to imply anyone should. People have to make their own mistakes in order to learn from them. But you also have to know there are times when you should say something, and by not saying something, you are doing more harm than good. That is not, IMO, putting my emotional needs before theirs.
Do you think that your job as a parent is to involve yourself in the decisions that your kids, who are now adults, make whether they ask you to or not?
Jesus Christ on a titanium fucking crutch. (Sorry, Sam)
The answer to your question, catsix, is almost all of the times no, and sometimes, yes. Because, you see (or perhaps you don’t- I’m beginning to get the impression you don’t even want to see), when it comes to interpersonal family relationships, there are no absolutes. I’m sorry, I know that’s not the answer you’re looking for, but it’s the truth. I can think of several reasons why a parent would have to step in and make a decision for a grown child. All of them involve that child being too diminished, in one way or another, to make their own competent decisions. Whether they feel they are capable of doing so or not.
