You wrote this:
…and you complain about what **Updike **wrote? Wow. You’re ballsy *and *stupid.
It proves that the police created a problem where there was none…
If someones speeding on the highway and no cops are around, they’re still speeding, breaking the law, and risking other peoples lives.
If someones enjoying a show and there are no cops around, they arent breaking the law. The cops coming in and acting like jerks are a requirement for the resisting and failing to obey offenses to even take place.
And if a cop is threatening someone with arrest if they dont turn off a video camera they should be fired. Period.
Uvula Donor, why don’t you show me the logical fallacy in my statement?
Updike, I’ve already shown that the reason the police stated for being there, a lack of a mass gathering permit, is not valid. I’ve shown that the vast majority of arrests made were not on charges that brought police there; they are on charges that came about because police were there.
Neither of you have any facts; all you have is a smug self-righteous attitude which is not grounded in the reality of this situation.
Calling me names won’t make what happened in Utah correct, or even legal. And that’s the crux of the biscuit, and the whole reason for this now-lengthy thread: what happened in Utah County was not right.
So go ahead, tell me again how the police acted appropriately. And when come back, bring facts.
Right, the police created a problem with the drugs, weapons, underage drinking, etc.
No, those things pretty much occur everywhere.
The police created the problem by raiding a legal assembly and acting like jerks. Threatening to arrest someone for filming them…
Regardless of the status of the necessary permits, the police had every reason to “raid”, based on the illegal activity that was occuring there.
We might be verging on “Schrodinger/Zen” territory here.
It’s a “If the police didn’t show up, there wouldn’t have been any illegal use of drugs, illegal possession of weapons, illegal sexual conduct with minors.”
Because, unil the cops show up and bust someone, nothing is illegal.
That’s the vibe, the “anything goes” mindset, I get from the raving pro-ravers.
Heres the thing
If this had been a charlie daniels band show, the cops would have showed up in a couple of cars (in regular uniform), shook hands with the security personel for confiscating the drugs (rather than arrest them) and walked through the grounds and arrested/ejected people they found breaking the law.
If there had been a permit issue they would have called the promoter days before the show, and wouldn’t have shut down the show because a few people were using drugs or drinking underage.
We know this because it happens all the freaking time. You dont think there were more drugs here in texas at the willie nelson picnic? You bet your ass there were.
Ad that to the things like making people leave early, then busting them for dwi(when if they had left it alone they might have had time to sober up)
I’m not against the cops busting people for drugs and underage drinking. I’m no fan of raves, but these cops behaved unprofessionally and made a situation 100 times worse by showing up in military gear and trying to use shock and awe on a peaceful gathering. The cops deserve to be sued.
I wouldn’t be caught dead at a rave, I’m an old fart and from what I’ve seen of them it would annoy the hell out of me
If people are drinking or doing drugs at a show, you arrest them. It happens at every music festival in the country.
This was out of line.
Well, I’ll bet Charlie Daniels and Willie Nelson don’t wait until an hour or two before their showtime to announce the location of their concerts, either.
When you go out of your way to avoid the cops, it sort of makes you a “blip on their radar,” in a way the Charlie and Willie aren’t. And I’m more than willing to bet that the vast majority of people attending Charlie’s and Willie’s concerts are of the age of consent, and also of legal drinking age, and aren’t attending their concerts because they think that there’s some kind of “time window” to “Rave” and get gone before the cops figure out where the concert’s at and can muster enough law enforcement personnel to make a showing.
You can go to the philharmonic and find illegal use of drugs (I’m skeptical of the weapons and illegal sexual conduct charges). Go to a rock concert of a similar size and you’ll find drugs, underage drinking etc.
If the cops have a legitimate reason to shut down the party (and they may have), they did not need to do it the way they did. They were looking for a confrontation and looking to scare the oh so dangerous dancers. This type of bust looks good to your average voter who watches Fox (and other hysterical media) and has been sold a distorted view of what raves are like. Looks like win for the WoSD. Harassing a subculture is a small price to pay. All the ravers want to do is have some fun…fun that hurts no-one.
Gee…I wonder why raves try to fly under the radar. Maybe because law enforcement tends to overreact in dangerous ways when they dicide they want to send a message? And is wanting to avoid the cops such evil that it calls for the type of reaction we saw in Utah? Is this some sort of revenge? And if it is, is this how we want our law enforcement to behave?
Why does that matter? If the cops called and asked and they refused to tell them( which I doubt) then you might have a point
you would be wrong…there are a lot people who are underage going to those shows
Any proof that these people thought that? it was a 9 hour show, that they took permits out for. I don’t think it was going to be a secret for long, and I imagine the permits had the location on them. the secrecy thing is just a marketing techniqe…has nothing to do with the cops.
I don’t recall any legislative acts, such as those I cited in post #30, that were specifically aimed at curtailing country music concerts, either.
The cops, and others, go out of their way to harass ravers. I’ve cited the proposed federal legislation. It’s a fact. And besides, in this particular case, the police knew around noontime on the day of show where it was being held. They had access to the same website all the regular ticket holders accessed. There was no mad scramble to “figure out where the concert’s at and can muster enough law enforcement personnel to make a showing”. The police planned it to be, as bdgr said, a shock and awe confrontation. As the land owner said, the police were “sending a message” with a very deliberate show of (unnecessary) force.
And besides, in all actuality, the police DID know where the event was, because they knew about the county health department permit. And that permit listed the location.
So they actually knew where it was taking place days in advance.
:rolleyes: We’re gonna talk about the “Vast Right Wing Conspiracy” now, aren’t we?
:Talkin’ 'bout my generation:
Because they do all kinds of illegal shit? Why else avoid a cop?
Maybe because people who believe in unrestricted rights and the right to flagrantly break any law they disagree with tend to overreact when the man comes down on them at all?
Is this some string of questions put together to imply a conspiracy by The Man?
Look back to the 1960’s for an example of how to conduct your counter-culture without having The Man get into your face all the damned time.
Only if you want to…I think we should stick to this subject
Hold on there sparky…When I was young some 20 years ago I avoided cops because they tended to beat the crap out of people they didn’t like, like the punk rockers I hung around. We I was older, it was bikers, and yeah we avoided them because they harrased the shit out of us because we looked differant.
When cops start acting like an ingorant vigalante mob you want to try and avoid them if you can…duh…
Sure, but that hasnt proven to be the case here at all. These were people having a lawful party and they didn’t over-react…they left as soon as the cops told them to but got gassed anyway.
Its not a conspicarcy…just plain ignorant abuse of authority. In the 60’s it was the hippies…then the punks…now the ravers…
Ignorant bigoted people hate and try to supress people who act differant than them. Its not a conspiracy just a lack of education and resepct for the law…on the part of those who are supposed to be enforcing the law.
Notice the word reasonable.
Many of the people there had set up tents. It could be reasonably assumed that they were not planning on leaving just because the show was over.
fine. Then bust them when they hit hour 12 and there are still people there.
That would have been the better way to do it. But by the wording of the permit they did not have too. Or maybe not. This is what the legal battle will be about.
The claims of brutality won’t work though. The video seems to support the police’s side of it more then it does the party-goers. All we see is two people being taken down and restrained by the police. And a camera man told to leave, and then after he starts walking away returning to where he was told to leave from. That’s when he was told to put the camera down.
Those two people have written statements that unintentionally admit to the crimes they were arrested for. Read the first post in this thread. The girl admits top not leaving when ordered to. Thus the failure to obey charge. And when told she was under arrest, refused to handcuffed. That is resisting arrest.
Did they need to do that. No. Was it legal. Yes.
Do you know that the police knew about the County Health Permit?
The county health department does not inform the police about every permit that is pulled. It’s not their job. And sure as hell shouldn’t be. The MG permits that weren’t pulled might had alerted the police that a large gathering was taking place. That’s probably why the promoters did not pull those permits.