Every year, hundreds of thousands of music-loving teens are brutally massacred by state-controlled military units using execution-style assault lines at raves and concerts.
We just don’t hear about them because of the mormon socialites who control the media.
Jesus stiltwalking Christ, I swear there’s some sort of contest between you and **mswas **to see who can type the stupidest fucking "OMG, teh MAN is OPPRESSING ME!!!11" statement.
Your question asked about “other” reasons for keeping the location a secret. I gave you some other reasons.
If you have never attended a rave yourself I can’t see how you could have a hypothesis.
A decent movie about rave culture is Groove. While I wouldn’t call it “definitive”, it is a fairly decent representation of the culture and people. It doesn’t shy away from the drugs, sex, or illegalities involved in some raves, but it also doesn’t portray them as the only reason or only occurences at a rave.
From the OP:
You believe the state-controlled media over the word of someone who was there, man? 
On the upside, these guys are world famous now, and will have a career throwing raves for the rest of their lives. God Bless America.
My friend was at a rave in the Czech Republic, a festival as it were, of a kind called a Teknival, which is where people who have sound systems just show up, and that’s the party. So when it was shut down by the Czech officials, they took it to the capital of Prague and protested by throwing a rave there for a couple days. The real problem is Americans are pussies.
Erek
I never said anything about execution. Basically it comes down to whether or not you support this sort of behavior from your government. Many people are trying to justify this behavior, and I don’t understand what their beef with rave culture is that they want men with assault rifles coming to tell us to stop partying. Drugs are illegal, they are dangerous. Football is Dangerous too.
The Mormons have a STRICT control over everything in Salt Lake City, so they control the TV station and the newspaper. It’s the establishment, people who like to oversimplify things by drawing a distinction between the government and those organizations is either lying or naive. The government has private lines of communication in the commercial sector. OMFG gasp what a conspiracy theory. Please, like Bill O’Reilly isn’t rocking his Republican party membership. It’s the same kind of situation. Stop acting like talking about ANY sort of corruption is a conspiracy theory.
Yeah, I just think your other reason was bullshit and you should know it’s bullshit as well. These folks are setting up an event known for having a lot of illegal activities and they keep it secret to avoid getting busted by the police. Deep down inside you’ve got to know that keeping it secret to make the event seem more “exclusive” is bullshit.
I’ve never been to a meth lab or a sweat shop but through the miracle of the written word I can take a good guess as to what either place is like. See, I can infer what might be going on at raves based on information in the paper, information provided by mswas who enjoys taking drugs while dancing, and various other sources included the movie you cited.
I’m sure there are other reasons but let’s not pretend that drugs aren’t vital. Or do you attend a lot of raves without a lot of X floating around?
Marc
So… you really had no question, you had an opinion already formed, and anything anyone else says that doesn’t match your opinion is bullshit?
I never said drugs weren’t a part of the scene. I was telling you that there are other reasons, besides the presence of illegal drugs, for keeping the location secret. That’s what you asked about, and my answer wasn’t bullshit. A rave is (ideally) it’s own little self-contained reality. That’s why the funny clothes, the glitter, the costumes. People deal with real life all week, a rave is a place to go that is different from the real world.
I don’t know why you would ask your question if you already had an opinion formed, unless you just wanted to make an opportunity for yourself to “be right” or something. 
In any case, the reasons that the police cited for their presence were too many people for an (allegedly) unpermitted event, underage drinking, and the presence of illicit drugs. Did they really need 90 officers, including 3 SWAT teams, with automatic weapons?
90 officers versus hundreds or more people? If those people got it into their heads that fighting the cops was a good idea, then they might well have needed all that stuff, yes. Fortunately the situation did not, in fact, get out of hand.
So if they don’t need to bring 90 officers, how many do they need to bring? We said there were approximately 400 people there at the time with a potential for multiple times that - they went early to make sure the number was lower, but they couldn’t have predicted the exact number. We’ll play with 400 anyways. So, the officers are outnumbered about four and a half to one, with who they brought. Where is the dividing line for when people with a currently distorted view of reality don’t respond to the authority that is the police? Are the officers safe if we send 50 of them with standard sidearms? Or does it BECOME a shoot-into-the-crowd situation because they were sent in without adequate force? What if we send twenty guys with nightsticks in there? Maybe they could ask politely for all illegal activity to cease? When no one either hears or listens to them, should they turn around and go home, and leave all the illegal activities to carry on into the night?
I’m kind of curious to see an answer and justification to this question outside of:
a) The best course of action was to send in the strongest force available with orders not to open fire unless in immediate danger, in order to reduce the chances of anything truly stupid happening to anyone on either side to the minimum level possible.
b) They shouldn’t have sent anyone at all to break it up! THE MAN!!!
*Hate? *Do you really think that any of these individuals matter enough to the police for them to have a personal vendetta? You’ve got to care about someone in order to hate them, you know. Indifference to them, personally, is far more likely.
But, then again, cops can develop a prejudice against those who repeatedly break the law, especially if the perpetrator gets all self-righteous about it. When that happens they sometimes do something horrible: they watch the person’s activities more closely to make sure they’re not breaking the law again, going off the crazy assumption that those who have repeatedly broken the law might be inclined to do so in the future. Oh, the humanity!
Turns out they weren’t “lying”, were they? After all, they DID find people with narcotics. Thus, their actions were completely justified. People were breaking the law. They did their job.
Besides, it really doesn’t matter two shits even if she did have a permit. If there was mass illegal activity going on, the cops were well within their authority to shut it down.
Nor do I particularly care if they use a flimsy excuse to get a warrant or to raid the party. They weren’t charging into a prayer meeting, after all, harassing innocent people. They were going to a place where they KNEW illegal activity was happening. Whatever they put down on the paperwork doesn’t invalidate their findings.
Look at it this way: if a cop driving behind me sees what looks like blood dripping out of my car, and pulls me over, claiming it was because of a broken tail light, does it really matter that the light was actually functional if a body is found in my trunk?
If you want to debate the right-and-wrongs of drug laws, you should start another thread. You might find I’m an ally in that one.
However, your OP was about the cops being wrong in busting up the party and arresting people. Like it or not, you have to obey the law of the land or take your lumps like a big boy.
In other words, just because you don’t agree with a law does not give you the right to disobey it. If you find a law to be objectionable, fight against it with the remedies granted to citizens: write to your representative, give to causes which lobby to change the laws, go to protests and sign petitions.
Nor did I see “unwarranted violence”. Show me a video of them beating the living Christ out of a subdued victim, and I’ll be right beside you, howling for vengence. What I saw in that video, though, was perfectly correct police tactics. Subduing a suspect is not a gentle act. Yes, people get knocked down. Yes, people can get kicked. Cops are trained not to strike at vital areas such as the head or neck, and most cops will avoid hitting a man in the balls. (After all, they’re trying to subdue, not to cause pain.)
Do you really think those cops were people just itching to beat someone? That they’re all soul-less, cruel automatons, eager to cause people pain just for the sheer enjoyment of it?
Guess what? If you resist arrest, you* are *a criminal. It’s against the law. (That pesky thing again.)
Cops cannot assume that everybody’s a nice guy. They’re not there to dick around asking people nicely to stop breaking the law. They’re there to arrest people who are commiting crimes, and to take them down by force if verbal commands are not obeyed. It’s their job.
Believe it or not, most of those cops probably didn’t want to be there. They probably much would have preferred to be* attending* the party, rather than busting it, but they have to do their jobs, regardless of what they think of particular laws. Do you honestly think these cops are doing this simply out of a malicious vendetta, or a burning hate of drugs?
And, fuck yeah, if I were a police chief sending my officers in to a situation with over a thousand young people, some of whom are intoxicated on narcotics, I’m ordering full riot gear and the Big Guns. Only a fool would send officers into such a situation unprepared. God only knows what could have happened. It’s simple (and correct) police tactics.
Look, I know you’re upset and you want us all to share your outrage, but there’s nothing here which indicates wrongdoing on the part of the police. You’re just pissed at the consequences of illegal activity.
You’re most welcome, and I certainly shall.
Yep, I’m biased I admit. Not that you or anyone else who defends raves have come up with a good arguement to change my mind.
I’m sure you actually believe it but that doesn’t make it isn’t bullshit. These organizers wanted to make money by setting up a party where they were betting people would be getting stoned. That’s the primary reason they kept it a secret and if you believe otherwise you’re fooling yourself.
Gen Con, Star Trek conventions, and SCA events are also their own little zones of self-contained reality. How come with those events the location is generally well known weeks if not months in advance? Promoters know that illicit drugs are a huge part of the attraction and attempt to keep the authorities from finding out about the rave. I imagine the allure for a lot of people is that it’s a self contained reality where they can drink and do drugs without fear of getting busted.
Rarely does someone come to the table with no opinions. I ask questions because it’s possible for me to change my mind when given new information. You provided me with information but my bullshit detector went off.
Marc
Does anyone know how big Child’s Ranch is? That is, is it a (fairly) isolated location with a couple miles buffer zone around it? Or does it have neighbors “right next door”? I’m pretty sure it’s somewhere between the two; I tried to find some info, but was unsuccessful…
Wow. I never expected that response. Speak of me fondly.
Man, I’m sick to death of the self-made martyrs of the rave community like the OP. STOP MAKING RAVES HOTBEDS OF DRUG USE AND CRIMINALITY AND THE COPS WILL STOP KICKING YOUR ASS. It’s that simple!
It’s not that they hate the youth, it’s not that they don’t want gatherings, or any of that - it’s that even the smallest, community-based raves are often complete cesspools of drug use and other criminal activities.
I was a house and breaks DJ for years - I played at a few events that were ten times the size of the event mentioned in the OP, with all permits, tickets sold through ticketmaster even, and so on. These parties were as legitimate and on the up-and-up as they possibly could have been, and they were still completely filthy with underaged chicks on E getting groped, guys smacked out of their brains on K, pot being smoked and sold in plain sight, tons of underage drinking and underage chicks making out (and more) with anyone in sight. These things will always be a part of rave culture until the people that are perpetrating them stop doing them, and no amount of security of searches will stop that.
I think that the scene should be self-policing; until people are socially censured for doing these things and people stop choosing to ruin their own scenes, your local scenes (and parties) will remain cesspools, and don’t be surprised when the cops kick the door down and sic the dogs on you. Also, all you DJ’s with names like “Methaddict Mikey,” Todd E," “Special K,” and so on, you’re part of the problem - stop encouraging and making a mockery out of the serious drug problems in the scene.
Are the cops assholes for taking these things down with this level of overreaction? Of course they are. Do people in the rave scene bring this upon themselves with indiscriminate criminality? Absolutely.
Well, since Liberal’s not around to suggest it, I’ll point out that we could also, as a society, simply just allow peaceful, honest people to do as they please as long as it doesn’t involve force or fraud. Not that this is ever going to happen, but it would be the appropriate attitude to take towards raves and such, IMHO.
Hey man, just because you were a scumbag promoter or worked with scumbag promoters doesn’t mean all rave promoters are scumbag promoters. There are a lot of crackheads in the world, it’s not the government’s job to punish everyone for their problems. It’s not their life to live, and that’s the bottom line. If a girl doesn’t want to get groped, either don’t go to a rave, or don’t go to a rave where you’ll encounter the kind of crowd where you’ll get groped? You know, not all scenes are like that. That kind of shit gets you tossed the fuck out where I’m from, and oftentimes the more underground events are like that. You did the sleazy big commercial event thing, of course all the predators come out for that. Little girls get groped at Rock Concerts in Colliseums as well.
I have two questions:
Did anyone watch the Television news Real Audio file and see the reporter groping for illegal stuff that was at the party, like the single hundred dollar bill in the baggie on their table that accounted for “Counterfeit Money” seized in the raid? When they saw that there were ‘weapons’ there, did they think to point out that it’s out west, people carry weapons more regularly in the western states?
Does anyone besides me find it disturbing that swat teams are wearing military fatigues now? How easy is it to get around Posse Comitatus if you can’t tell the difference between police and the military?
Please people start thinking, it’s very important that you do that now. I don’t care what’s legal and illegal, the laws are ridiculous, get some sense smacked into your fucking heads, THIS IS UNAMERICAN, IT IS BAD, IT IS WRONG. It is a violation of the Constitution of the United States, the word Constitution is a synonym with the word “HEALTH”. Please get that through your goddamned heads. The law is unjust, the people choosing to enforce it are unjust, and telling me that we should have to pay protection money to the country’s biggest GANG, is FUCKED UP!
Fuck that, I have the right to peaceably assemble, and you can’t do A FUCKING THING ABOUT IT. Your loopholes are irrelevant to me, your condescensions do not phase me, you are wrong, period.
Erek
P.S.
I once had a cop tell me that he belonged to the biggest gang in the world when he was trying to intimidate me.
I will, don’t worry.
A sqauad car or two. I’ve been to plenty of busted raves. Thet cops tell the promoters to shut down. The promoter turns off the sound. Everyone leaves. Bringing in a helicopter with 90 officers in combat gear is waaay over the top. Beating the party-goers is beyond the pale. Who are the ravers hurting by gong out and dancing?
Yes people can die. From driving cars too. And choking on pretzels. Do we ban everything on that spurious logic?