It’s well away from any houses. But it is right next to several campgrounds that are full this time of year with families trying to enjoy the great outdoors. And having a rave next door does tend to ruin that experiance.
Nothing like paying twenty dollars a night to have your kids kept up all night by loud music and flashing lights.
Doesn’t mean that some aren’t either. Unless you personally know these guys you can’t say either way can you?
Once again, unless you know what kind of rave this was. you can’t say this wasn’t the groping kind. For your information, most in Utah are.
We don’t carry weapons more regularily in the western states. We may own more, but it is very rare for people to be packing in Utah. I saw some of the recovered stash on the local news. Yes, they only showed one baggie with a counterfeit bill. And one with shrooms, and one with E, and one with cocaine, and one with… that wasn’t everything they recovered. Just showpieces for the media.
I don’t find it disturbing at all. It makes it very easy to identify that you are dealing the authorities.
Perhaps you should take your own advise. You weren’t there. Nor do you know the culture. It’s not as one sided as you seem to think. I know people who were there. And I know what they said about it.
They claim no one resisisted. But they have a different definition of resisting then me, and I’m sure many other posters here. I happen to think telling the police to “Fuck off! I have rights and you can’t make me go!” is resisting. They didn’t.
You are wrong. They can and will arrest you. If you are peacefully assembling they won’t. The people at the rave were not.
I have been to raves in the woods, if there are hills between you and the rave it’s not that loud. Again, the jury is still out on the permit.
I am tired of families being an excuse to not allow people to have some fun.
People get groped in bars, at the mall, at school. It’s hardly compelling. I’ve been at plenty of parties shut down by the cops.
Suuuuuurre they are. That’s a pretty broad brush there buddy.
I’m gonna have to play the bullshit card, I grew up in New Mexico, I know that people carry knives and guns regularly out west.
But not able to identify whether or not they are using the military as a police force, which is BTW, illegal. The navy Blue and black SWAT uniforms with the big SWAT emblazoned on them enables you to tell they are authorities as well, but maybe you find multiple uniform types that help delineate between agencies confusing.
I might buy that if this weren’t a regular occurence and that wasn’t a ridiculous show of force.
I will decide whether or not to resist arrest when the time comes, if they are coming at me illegally, it’s time to take matters into my own hands, sorry bub. They might just have to kill people if people get fed up with this, and then we’ll see where people stand, when people are massacred at a rave.
They CAN arrest me, that doesn’t make it RIGHT. Trust me this shit isn’t going to stand, rights are not granted by the state they are TAKEN by the populace, by force if necessary, but hopefully by politics. The right of people to camp quietly DOES NOT supersede my right to camp loudly from time to time. That’s the point of the fucking woods, so that people can move around and not bother one another. They need to learn to deal.
So I want you to think as politics in this country gets more stratified, which side you’re on.
I’m definitely not with the president, and remember what he said about people who are not with him. Keep treating people like terrorists, and they will eventually oblige you, and if there is one thing ravers are good at, it’s grassroots organization. Ponder that for a little while with your self-righteous civil rights hating ass. Out here we are MAJORLY politicized and are ready to blow this shit up into a media circus. We’ve got the technology, we’ve got the know how, and we’ve got the people who know how to get attention. That may be different from Utah, but I’m going to stand behind these people’s right to go dance their asses off once in a while.
The United States government is obsolete, it is oppressive, it must be taken down, now either it will be done peacefully, or World War III isn’t going to be fought nation against nation, it’s going to be fought faction against faction, anyone that wants to limit my personal rights is going to have to force me into compliance.
I am not alone in this feeling. This truly hit home for me when I met a skinny sensitive hippy who was learning kapoeira because, “The police aren’t ever going to take me into custody again.” In this generation, even the hippies are preparing for it. It’s a battle of the World War II generation against the youth, this is one of those areas where it becomes a flashpoint. The reality is, the old generation is going to die, the young generation is going to take over, and we’re less confused and more practical than the liberal douches from our parent’s generation, not to mention we are INGRAINED with technology. We’re taking over, that’s all there is to it, simply because we are the younger generation.
So it’s time to say goodnight to the generation who’s hate created the Cold War. It’s over, and we’re not going to be left a police state in it’s wake, sorry.
Only one of the two major newspapers is owned by “rich socialite mormons”. The other major paper tends to have an anti-mormon bias.
And only one of the network affliate television stations is owned by the mormons. Or even by Utahns.
Your sterotypes about Utah are as bad as your ones about police officers. Maybe you should cut back on the drugs a bit, I’ve heard they cloud a persons ability to think clearly.
“POSSE COMITATUS ACT” (18 USC 1385): A Reconstruction Era criminal law proscribing use of Army (later, Air Force) to “execute the laws” except where expressly authorized by Constitution or Congress. Limit on use of military for civilian law enforcement also applies to Navy by regulation. Dec '81 additional laws were enacted (codified 10 USC 371-78) clarifying permissible military assistance to civilian law enforcement agencies–including the Coast Guard–especially in combating drug smuggling into the United States. Posse Comitatus clarifications emphasize supportive and technical assistance (e.g., use of facilities, vessels, aircraft, intelligence, tech aid, surveillance, etc.) while generally prohibiting direct participation of DoD personnel in law enforcement (e.g., search, seizure, and arrests). For example, Coast Guard Law Enforcement Detachments (LEDETS) serve aboard Navy vessels and perform the actual boardings of interdicted suspect drug smuggling vessels and, if needed, arrest their crews). Positive results have been realized especially from Navy ship/aircraft involvement.
I was going by the word of my girlfriend’s parents who used to live in Salt Lake City, so I will not debate about it, for I don’t know for sure I don’t have time to research who owns what and who’s a mormon or not to verify any particular way, so I will let teh stereotype be what it is, and let that be that.
I hear buying into propaganda also clouds a person’s ability to think. Anyone that thinks there is no such thing as government corruption is ridiculous. Raves are being singled out, I haven’t heard a SINGLE THING that applies to a rave that doesn’t apply to many other activities yet aren’t treated this way. There are drugs everywhere, people like drugs, deal with it, it’s not the government’s place to tell me what to do with my own body, that’s the end of it. I have the right to peaceably assemble, that’s what the FIRST COMMANDMENT of this government says, so FUCK EVERYONE who disagrees.
If people weren’t getting arrested for no good reason, they wouldn’t have been resisting arrest. Every single one of your arguments is completely recursive. Basically what you are saying is “If they had bent over and taken it in the ass in the first place, they wouldn’t have been so rough.”, well all I have to say to that is “FUCK YOU, you’re an asshole.”
And I’ve been camping when there have been hills in the way. It is that loud.
I’m tired of people thinking their fun supercedes my fun. When I go camping I want to hear the bats and crickets. The people camping paid there money, shouldn’t they be allowed to enjoy nature. That’s why a lot of people do go into the moutains for you know.
So have I. And I’ve been at bars where someone was groped. It usually ends up with the police showing up. As it should.
No bigger then yours, sport.
Last I looked at a map, Utah and New Mexico weren’t the same place. We don’t walk around with six guns strapped to our sides, regardless of what you’ve seen in the movies.
I saw the video and didn’t think they were military. But then again, I don’t have the hard-on against authority figures you seem to have.
If law breaking at raves wasn’t a regular occurence, the busts would not be either. And as has been pointed out earlier in the thread, that was not a ridiculous show of force. It was enough to get the point across.
If you choose to get killed for a stupid reason, that’s your call. They aren’t going to open fire on you, if you don’t pose a threat to them. If you pose a threat, well… won’t be your smartest move will it.
You need to learn to deal as well. You don’t want your party to get busted, don’t do things to get it busted.
Your right to make noise is superceded by the rights of those camping to have quiet. There are noise ordinances in National parks that will back me up on that. And in that canyon, they are even posted. The point of the woods is not to make noise, its to get away from it.
I’m on the side that doesn’t think that it’s right and the other is wrong.
I’m not with the presidant either. Just because I don’t think people should be allowed to do whatever they want doesn’t mean I’m against civil rights. I’m opposed to your rights to being an ass imposing on my rights to be left alone.
I think you greatly over-estimate the organizational abilities of ravers, Afterall, most the evidence here points to them not being able to even throw a proper party.
I stand behind their rights to dance everyonce in awhile too. I used to do it myself until I got sick of the hypocits in the scene. I also stand behind the rights of the police to enforce the law. It’s not an all or nothing thing.
There are a few compounds up in Idaho with the same view as you. Not people I’d want to be associated with though.
Maybe he’s be better served by not flaunting the law. I get away with a lot, because honestly, most police officers don’t care as long as it isn’t affecting someone else.
They said that in the sixties as well. Forty years later, they are still saying it. The young generation becomes the old generation. And most of them grow up and realise it is not all about them.
[QUOTE=mswas]
I was going by the word of my girlfriend’s parents who used to live in Salt Lake City, so I will not debate about it, for I don’t know for sure I don’t have time to research who owns what and who’s a mormon or not to verify any particular way, so I will let teh stereotype be what it is, and let that be that.
I hear buying into propaganda also clouds a person’s ability to think. Anyone that thinks there is no such thing as government corruption is ridiculous. Raves are being singled out, I haven’t heard a SINGLE THING that applies to a rave that doesn’t apply to many other activities yet aren’t treated this way. There are drugs everywhere, people like drugs, deal with it, it’s not the government’s place to tell me what to do with my own body, that’s the end of it. I have the right to peaceably assemble, that’s what the FIRST COMMANDMENT of this government says, so FUCK EVERYONE who disagrees.
[quote]
And anyone who thinks everything the goverment does is corrupt is a loon. I know there is corruption. I don’t think there was any in this case. It is the goverments buisness as long as the majority of the people want it to be. Which unfortanetly is still the case. It can, and will change. But your tin foil hat isnn’t doing much to help it.
I
No, what I am saying is until the laws get changed, don’t flaunt breaking them. You want to take drugs, don’t gather in a large group to do it. It’s asking for trouble. As is arguing about it once you get caught.
It is people like you who are hurting the legalization effort. And that makes you the asshole.
They use the same press, but are owned by different companys. At least until a few years ago when the Deseret News switched to mornings to compete with the Trib. I think the Deseret News got it’s own then.
Maybe if it were easier to get a permit far away from you we’d do that, but it isn’t, the authorities follow us everywhere we go. Trust me, we don’t want you anywhere near our party as much as you don’t want to be near it.
Our raves are busted in the cities as well, where are we supposed to go?
Yes, showing up and arresting the person who is committing the offense. Unfortunately at a rave, we can’t do that because if the police show up, they fuck with everyone, not just the asshole groping people. So we don’t have the luxury of police protection, thanks to logic like yours.
Nope it’s not the same place, but Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, Texas and Wyoming are similar to New Mexico, I’m sorry for thinking that Utah was in anyway similar to those states. Remember a “weapon” can be considered one of those pocket knives that’s easy to flip open.
Yeah, it’s about a hard on against authority. I’m mad because we have a government at all. It couldn’t at all be that this shit flies in the face of the constitution, no I’m only mad about authority. You’re a fucking :wally
As has been pointed out, the laws pretty much single out raves to make them illegal.
Living free isn’t a stupid reason. Our forefathers understood that, it’s too bad so many have forgotten that.
Again fuck you and all of your busybody kind, I’ll do drugs if I damn well want to, it’s got nothing to do with you, crawl into your goddamned hole, let us have our permits to have our parties out in bumblefuck, and we will, no bother to you whatsoever. Oh wait, that’s right, you wanted to stop us from having our parties out in bumblefuck too. Please your shallow attempt to justify the ending of raves period is pathetic.
Again, show me where I am allowed to do it? When they shut down our nightclubs, legitimate businesses that can’t get permits because of the political climate, we can’t go to the woods, we can’t do it in the suburbs. Where can we do it? Huh? Again teh drug laws are fucking ridiculous.
Well then maybe we’re not on the same side. Trust me, more shit like this, it’s gonna get ugly.
Clearly you think your right to not allow raves supersedes my right to have raves.
You mean the biased reporting where the cops said they had no permits? They say that they did. I’ve thrown illegal parties more than once, and you know what? We always admit when we don’t have permits, so somehow I am more inclined to believe the promoters than the cops on this one. If only because I’ve never ever seen a raver not own up to the illegal party. If you knew anything about the culture you’d realize that throwing an audacious illegal party gets you bragging rights. Of course the cops couldn’t possibly be LYING right? I guess I know a different class of ravers than you do. Out here they make the pretentious distinction between “Party Kids” and “Ravers”, ravers have a distinction of being kind of ditzy and flakey. All in all it’s the same culture in the end. I know “Party kids” that work for major corporations. Hell I am an executive in three corporations. Dysco Noir is my event production company, we’re in both New York and Chicago and when I throw an event of that commercial nature, I’ll pay the protection money to my friends who are cops, like I said. We police ourselves here, we’ve got groups that walk through the crowd protecting people in those particular instances. There is a name for them, they are called “Freak Scouts” they walk around making sure that people aren’t stealing stuff, getting raped in corners, fire exits aren’t blocked, people aren’t ODing, that sort of thing. We can’t stop people from doing drugs, nor do we want to, and we shouldn’t be forced to. I know a large portion of the party scene promoters personally here in New York, and we have organized events that got to massive sizes using SMS text messaging and moved the crowd through the street. The term is “Smart Mob” look it up, it’s been used to manipulate national politics by the Sandinistas and in a recent election in the Phillipines. Trust me, the level of organization is pretty high. For instance, look into “The Rainbow Gathering” and “Burning Man” those are two festivals that get together every year with about 30,000 people and basically build a municipality at the festival site. If you think that’s not organized you’re daft. We bring people in from all over the world to play at our parties. There are raves in most parts of the world, and many people I know travel all over the world going to them and know the organizers.
What the police did was fucked up. They weren’t “enforcing the law”.
Ahem, we aren’t the Christian nazis in this equation.
Yeah, and if it is affecting someone else then it’s tough, even if that is only one other person, in teh case of a rave, the will of one or two people annoyed by it is greater than the will of 1500 people attending the party. See a bit of a disparity there at all? We live in SOCIETY, sometimes our actions affect other people. The question isn’t whether or not we are AFFECTING them, but whether or not we are HURTING them.
The Baby Boomer generation did change a lot culturally, but oftentimes they were very impractical. I’ve been working with an NGO and my girlfriend has worked with Peter Yarrow of Peter Paul and Mary, and all due respect to that generation, but a lot of them are kind of impractical and out of touch. Whereas our generation was making as much money as their parents when they were in their early twenties. I was making $ 40,000 a year when I was 22, and now my computer company is ALREADY profitable, after about 3 months of existing concretely. All my friends are in the same boat. A good friend of mine is starting a biodiesel fuel refinery in Brooklyn. I have a lot of stories like this, of people that are doing amazing things that I’ve met at Raves. Hippies may have had free love, but we know how to make supercomputers, magnetic card readers, and run a corporation. Pardon me if I don’t think there is just a tad bit of difference in organizational capability here.
I trust a lot of people over thirty, none of them has ever put a gun in my face.
So, the families that are leagally camping don’t have the right to do so because some people want to throw an illegal rave?
I’ll see your bullshit and raise you. I grew up in New Mexico, born and raised. Going back in about a month to visit my family. The number of people who carry weapons in New Mexico isn’t higher there than anywhere else (unless you count the people who carry guns during hunting season. Even then it is probably about the same as any other state. This is the best cite I could find which out the number of concealed carry permits at 2000.)
If you decided to resist arrest at that particular rave and got killed in the process I hope you realize that the vast majority of people would call you a dumbass for resisting arrest at an illegal rave. (Note, SnowboarderBos little link does not prove that the promoters had all the legal permits)
Actually, since the rave did not have a permit, the campers rights DID supercede the ravers. Once again, a quote from the organizers of the rave that they really did have a permit does not mean they actually had a permit. You would think that if they had the correct permit they would have already posted a copy of it instead of bleating about how they are talking to their lawyers.
Let’s see. A) The President wasn’t involved with this in anyway so that is irrelevant. B) To have a media circus the media has to be interested and I am willing to bet they aren’t and C) they can dance their asses off all they want. It’s the drugs, missing permit, etc that are the problem.
Oh bullshit. Grow up. They threw a party (for profit) and didn’t get the right permit. I made a living playing in bands for years and we made a killing for a while throwing keggers at various places (houses, warehouses, the beach after rigging the bathroom power supply to feed the amps) Most of the time we got the right permits. When we didn’t and the cops showed up it sucked but it was our fault for not doing it the right way. We packed up and moved the party somewhere else if possible. If not we went home. When the cops did show up and we had a permit we made damn sure that it was easily accessible to the crew, especially the guys covering the door/gates/whatever.
Yeah, I can see it now. ‘Ravers for X and freed…ohhhh she’s hot!’.
I thank my luck stars that you live in Canada, instead of America.
I’ve attended many St. Louis Cardinal baseball games this year, and I’ve yet to see one single fight in the stands, in spite of the fact that there are a whole shitload of guys walking around hocking cold beer. Why yes, thatnk, you, I’ll have one more.
My local tavern doesn’t even have a bouncer. It’s very “Cheers”-esque.
Because minors are still growing, and introducing excessive amounts of foreign substances like drugs and alcohol to their developing minds and bodies is a really bad thing, from a mental and physical health perspective. Not to mention the fact that teens are at the stage of human development where they are first truly introduced to more social and sexual pressures than ever before in their lives, and are beginning to acquire the maturity to deal with it and become productive adults.
Tossing drugs and alcohol into the mix is like tossing burning matches onto guncotton.
mswas: other than not being too terribly upset by your outlandish hyperbole, I find it deliciously ironic that many of the young, hip, urbane ravers busted by fascist pigs with assault rifles are also many of the same young, hip, and urbane people who despise the NRA, and think only cops should be allowed to carry weapons.
Proof indeed that alcohol can be responsibly used. Funnily enough, I’ve been to a lot of clubs this year, and have yet to see one single fight between people on ecstasy, and I’ve seen one fuckload of people on ecstasy. The very idea is pretty funny, to be honest with you. And yet we (in the UK) still see MDMA classed as being as dangerous as heroin; mushrooms too, for fuck’s sake.
I think the point cowgirl is making is that these decisions are as ludicrous to people with actual experience of these drugs as a total alcohol ban would be to you. There’s so much bullshit thrown around about “rave” culture that it’s entirely impossible to have a serious debate about it, and consequently pretty much impossible for these people to enjoy themselves in the way they want without infringing the law in some way. There’s no need for parties like this to inconvenience campers, no need for the cries of “won’t someone think of the children” - these problems are created by the legal marginalisation of what is, at the heart of it, harmless fun.
Well, since we’re trading anecdotes, I can tell you that I have experienced substantially more sexual harassment at the hands of beer-drinking men at baseball games than I have at raves.
No argument from me. But they’re still going to be TAKING them (no matter how many times the SWAT team goes after them), so I think we should be able to talk about it with them sensibly - ie “if you must take E, you should know the following things in order to be safe about it.” Witness the example on the last page of the girl who died from drinking much too much water because she was worried about dehydration.
If it was legal, kids who took drugs and felt unsafe or insecure wouldn’t be afraid to approach their parents/cops/doctors for help. If it was legal, there could be regulations requiring venues to provide free drinking water (something I think is crucial).
Since it’s illegal, they’re doing it out of sight where anything could go wrong. Since it’s illegal, kids (or anyone) taking E can be stuck, dehydrating, inside a venue where bottled water is $5 a pop and the taps in the bathroom only run hot.
sheesh. Helicoptors and riot gear? for a rave? For God’s sake. For enforcing permit violations and a few drug busts, this seems way over the top. This kind of shit would never go down in California (I am the poster child for crazy Californians, in another pit thread). I’d be horrified if I were a parent in utah, or a taxpayer in Utah, having to pay for this shit.
Too over the top. Do the taxpayers of Utah really pay for the helicopters and soldiers? Sheesh, I hope they do. I hope I don’t.
You’re on the right track on this complaint – sort of – but headed in the wrong direction. Posse Comitatus refers to the use of active duty military troops to enforce laws. This law does not pertain to the use of National Guard troops when in service of the states. If a National Guard unit were federalized (ie, called up by the President to serve in a warfighting mission), then PCA would prohibit them from carrying out law enforcement missions. If the National Guard is under the control of the governors, then state law dictates what actions they may and may not take.
And don’t complain that using the National Guard for law enforcement used to be illegal or hasn’t been done before. It has been like this since PCA was enacted in 1878.
In any case, I haven’t noticed that the National Guard or the Army was used in this raid. I just read references to Utah’s SWAT teams. Maybe I missed something?
Dang, this whole thread is making me all weepy and nostalgic. Back in the '70s we had raves long before the term had been invented. Back then, as well, we were all convinced The Man was out to keep us down simply because He was jealous of our righteous ability to party.
Despite mswas’ earnest attempts to blow this teapot tempest up into the Apocalypse, sorry, but I just don’t see it. It’s frickin’ Utah, fer fuck’s sake. Apparently a lot of folks there won’t even let coffee pass their lips. That people will routinely drive more than a hundred miles from Salt Lake to a flyspeck shithole like Evanston, Wyoming just to get a decent drink, ought to tell you something. Yep, it appears the cops may have wildly overreacted in this case, but there’s nothing at all unique about so-called “rave culture” in bringing down police attention. How is this any different, other than maybe scale of the event, from police actions against keg parties, speakeasies, strips joints, and unpermitted gatherings of all types, going back to Prohibition or before?
The most sad yet hilarious thing to consider out of all this is that no doubt ten or fifteen years from now, mswas will suddenly one day catch himself thinking “… those goddam noisy kids down the street…” and at that moment begin weeping for his lost youth. But hey, till then, fight the power, etc.