Zebra, although this was clearly an assault, the punk’s demeanor is suggestive that this was a deliberate provocation, and potentially he could have been prepared, materially and mentally, to do all of you great harm if you had gone for it.
As for the OP situation, this was no defense-of-honor thing. Had I been in such that situation and seen the initial confrontation, I would have probably immediately said to my companion: “Hey, let’s go to some finer establishment with classier company”. If OTOH we had remained in the place and she importuned me about it, I would have said “too late for that, saying something now will look like WE are the ones looking to make something of it”. And made a mental note about not bringing her to such venues in the future.
I’m all for the concept of knowing that you can count on your partner to back you up when really needed, but at the same time this must involve minimizing the chances of that happening, and specially to AVOID by all possible means having things get to the point that said backup involves risk that something more than mere pride be wounded. And let me be blunt, it’s pride, not honor, that’s at stake when someone talks trash to/about you and you can’t put them in their place.
OTOH eleanorigby recognizes that while her feeling is
…this risks that unexplainable and annoying-as-all-tarnation expectation of mind-reading that plagues male/female relationships, and is not completely reasonable. Though in her defense, it IS rational to want someone who will back you up in the moment of real crisis. The problem comes when the idea is that they be at the ready to step up for real, just so you can say “never mind”, having satisfied the need to know. You either need backup/defense or you don’t; it’s not there for “satisfaction” purposes.
The only time I’ve been bothered in a vaguely relevant way was when some sleazy drunk in a club decided “Piss off” meant “Yes, do follow me around hitting on me relentlessly.” I certainly appreciated the presence of my (male, platonic) friends, but I actually would’ve been pissed off if any of them had tried to step in - that would’ve robbed me of the fun of dealing with the guy my own way (apparently, I remember more of my year or so of Hapkido when I’m drunk than when I’m sober).
Hey man, punk shows are only violent in one specific location (the pit) where you can easily avoid getting hit if you just don’t stand there. There’s a whole ring of people who stand around the pit (like me) to corral those drunk guys. I’m too old and out of shape to go in the pit anymore, so I just stand on the edge and push people back in it, ensuring that they are traveling in the correct direction (counter-clockwise, jackass!). I won’t comment on hardcore dancers (not like a dancing enthusiast, but someone who dances to hardcore), aside from the fact that they look like idiots and often are idiots. Sounds like this guy was an out of place hardcore dancer.
I agree with those who said they might not want their SO to DO something, just want to know that they WOULD do something if need be. You really oughta have your friends’ and loved ones’ backs, but need to exercise judgement in when and how to have their backs. You do need to have the kind of relationship where you understand each others’ expectations in these situations, though. Mind reading is hard.
I’ll just add my 2cts though I agree with with the other posters.
Drunks always talk shit and the next day they’ll probably even say themselves that they were talking shit last night.So it is utterly pointless to engage them in debate. Flawless logic delivered with the most practiced rhetoric just aint going to change their minds.
The fact that they were unaware that your wife had Mexican kids shows that they weren’t
deliberately trying to insult her,its quite likely that they were hardly aware of her existence.
Bearing in mind that if anybody was going to get their head kicked in by five drunks it would most likely be you not her it might have been nice if she’d quietly told you what she had in mind beforehand and asked if it was o.k. by you to go ahead but if not she’d button her lip.
Finally she jumps into an argument with drunken men of her own choice.
Did she suddenly expect them to start speaking in BBC english and using the debating techniques of the local Rotary Club?
From your account she threw the first insult ie.“Your stupid” not you’re in error or you’re wrong .
As the saying goes " If you want to talk like a man then we’ll talk back to you like a man "
I think that the guy showed remarkable restraint for a drunk reacting to someone poking their nose into his conversation uninvited.
Many drunks would have used a lot choicer language then he did and you say yourself that he stopped antagonising her when she stopped talking.
It could well be that when he overheard her stirring the shit once again he probably thought to get things sorted out one way or the other without dragging things out any longer.
She really sounds like a loathsome woman and you are well shot of her.
Oh, I used to attend punk shows a lot in college, when I played in a ska-punk band. Even then, the pit was never for me. Now I just feel like Lt. Murtaugh in Lethal Weapon: “I’m getting too old for this shit!”
I loves me a good pit, but it is important to know when it is and is not appropriate; and in your case it most certainly was not appropriate (sidenote: I did some Googling and I think I may check her music out, thanks). Though I am painting with a broad brush here, RedRosesForMe is likely right in saying this guy was a Hardcore Dancer. He matches a lot of the criterion. You were correct in that case to push him off, regardless of your girlfriend’s physical characteristics (though that certainly adds more justification).
Well if this was an accurate description of the type of person she is/was, then you absolutely should feel compelled to distance yourself from her. Like I said earlier, she was endangering both of you with her actions.
Zebra that is a pretty wretched story, I understand why it kind of bothers you to this day. It’s likely a good thing you didn’t engage in pursuit though. To me that sounds like a set-up, and I wouldn’t have been surprised if he had weapons, friends, or both waiting in the wings for you. You may say that I’m paranoid (and you wouldn’t be the first) but that behavior is very off, and your story made it seem like the kid had done it before.
Or it could have just been some punk-ass betting on the fact that most adults would be too shocked and taken aback by such a thing to react. Best to not take any chances and issue a beatdown.
Maybe someone else said this and I missed it, but: SHAKES, are you the father of the kids your ex-wife was talking about? Just curious. In any case, I’m all for defending your date, but it’s not right for her to demand you get into a fight on her behalf. That’s just vain.
The thing is that as much as the first described incident bothers me, the second incident makes me a little proud of myself.
I think defending your lady’s honor is more about defending your own. So is defending your own honor, when you want project that honor around other people you care about, macho BS or not?
Woohoo! An opportunity to share my boring, personal stories, as they happen to be precisely on point!
Many, many years ago, when I was first dating my future-ex-wife, we went out to a bar with her sister. The sister spent a little time chatting with a friend of mine who had taken to drinking himself into a complete stupor. I should point out that sober (which is all the time or him now), he was the nicest guy you’d want to meet. He was even sweet when he was half in the bag. It was only when he’d had four or five pitchers of beer that he became abusive specifically to women who would not go home with him. So when my ex-SIL walked away from him, to go to the bathroom (and probably not return), he started shouting epithets at her. I walked over and told him that he was going to have to stop doing that, because, being the nearest thing to a male relative around, I was kind of responsible for her honor that night.
Now about ten years later, my ex-SIL was married to a large, burly man. She happened to get into a discussion with some drunk sitting at a bar, whose opinions she found offensive. She began arguing more and more heatedly and eventually began shouting at him. Her husband came over and dropped a big bear paw on the guy’s shoulder, in what would seem like a friendly manner if the man hadn’t crumpled off his stool and onto the floor.
In the first case, it’s a little macho BS, but what the hell I was raised in the old school. I could have spoken to the doorman about it, but I figured I’d be the man. In the second case, well that’s just using someone else to win your arguments for you. I mean “win” in the broadest possible sense, of course.
While it’s nice of you to spare another human embarrassment, “lady” and “gentleman” seems outdated. Seems like either partner could do it for another.
In answer to the OP’s more general question, yes, I would appreciate help from anyone, and particularly someone who cares about me, if I am being physically harmed. The idea that someone needs to speak for me is a foreign one.
My first thought is the fact that you’re asking the question suggests that you’re doing some soul searching about that incident and how it made you appear to your ex-wife and maybe even that you are wondering if your perceived lack of manliness or guts or sense of loyalty undermined the relationship. You are right to do so! She seemed like a good woman to stand up to those racists and it doesn’t seem like she expected you to fight them physically.
I was once in a restaurant in London with a group of friends. We were are all studying for our law society exam. We were waiting for a table and this guy who liked me was chatting with me. We were standing next to a table where a couple were having dinner. Suddenly I felt shoved really hard from behind so I was propelled forward. The guy at the table basically decided to shove me because we were standing next to his table in a tiny restaurant saying “get your ass off the table”. Bear in mind I was not sitting on the table. My friend, who this guy didn’t dare pick on, just said “don’t talk to her like that” and nothing more. The least he could have done was report this moron to the manager and get him and his stupid yob wife kicked out. Needless to say, any attraction for my admirer completely vanished that night.
Recently I was at a house party in the Gulf in a very safe city. Whilst I’m picking songs from a playlist this guy walks up and starts rubbing himself against my butt and grabs my crotch. I’m not wearing a tight dress. It is flared skirt. This behavior at a private party is very unusual in the Gulf. In addition all of us are professionals in our thirties. There is alcohol but even when guys are falling down drunk (rare out here) the worst they would do is try and kiss a woman. My friend of ten years tells the guy off but doesn’t attempt to have him ejected from the party. Just says lamely it’s not my party. I am like a hellcat for my friends. theres no need for violence but I would make a fuss until the guy leaves. I had to call the host myself and get him to eject this creep.
Bottom line is yes sometimes you have to inconvenience yourself for your friend, your wife or your sister or girlfriend. That’s called true love and friendship! You did well to get the Manager involved but yes you could have responded to that guy sooner (in calm firm way). I think how he responded to your wife wasn’t the issue it was the pejorative language about Mexicans (that you didn’t repeat here) that hurt her (her kids are precious) and you failing to get involved to stop that talk.
Welcome to the Dope, Holly! Currently active threads can be found on the main page of each forum. If you find a thread by some other means, it’s always a good idea before responding to check the dates of the posts, in the upper left hand corner of each post.
All the posts in this thread before yours are from April 2007, nearly 10 years ago. There’s no rule against responding anyway, but it’s just that the people you’re responding to may no longer even be active here.
Many a new poster’s first SDMB post is in what we call a ‘zombie’ thread - a thread that’s resurrected after being inactive for years. Very often, the conversation picks up from where it left off, just with a new bunch of participants. And sometimes the original posters show up too, you never know.
And I completely fail to see what is wrong with that. As the injured party, wasn’t it on you to explain what happened to the host? I can’t see a reason why a third party (male or not) should have done it on your behalf. It seems even counter-productive to me (your friend doesn’t know exactly what happened, or at least not as well as you do, and if I was the host I’d want to talk with you anyway, even if your friend had reported the incident).
I don’t even understand why you you would have wanted your friend to do this for you. In fact, it’s the same with your restaurant anecdote. Why would you want someone else to report the issue to the bartender, rather than doing it yourself?
I might be offensive here, but the only two interpretations I can think of are “very shy and doesn’t dare to make a fuss herself” or “precious flower/princess who expect people/males/friends to take care of issues”. Either way, it sounds…how to say it…Victorian era behaviour?
Ladies have a different “Honor” than men do. A man should recognize that and reflect it in his behavior. Just as a man’s “honor”, if not protected, can even result in a duel to the death.
