Question about unattractive women

In My Humble Opinion
41

This is URL=http://www.geocities.com/cindismojo/Cindipics.html]Me. I am over 40 and over weight. I am at best well groomed, well behaved and exercise a whole lot of common sense. I know I am not beautiful.

I don’t know how you are supposed to act when you are beautiful because I’ve always acted like me. Is there a certain way I should act or not act or are there some things I should or shouldn’t do because I know I’m not beautiful. Are you asking if there is some sort of unwritten “Plain Gal’s Guide to the Universe” that is passed from one plain generation?

Your question is

Have I come to an accomodation? I don’t think so. I realized that intellegence and the ability to function under pressure will get you further than a pretty face will.

Am I in dispair? No. I am slightly pissed off about my health but I am definitely not dispairing.

I have never been told that my value is in my attractiveness. I have quite frankly always been praised for my intelligence. (Which I know has been questioned many times on this board but I digress) So I feel good about myself. Sure I would like to be perfect physically but I’d rather be blessed with brains.

42

Gaudere’s Law???
Apparently while I’m bragging about my intellectual prowess I am also screwing up the code.

If you really care to see, just click on my www button and there is a link titled “me” on there.

I guess this is sort of anticlimactic huh?

Carry on.

43

[sub]Some would feel they ought to slap me for posting to this topic, but here goes…[/sub]

As for the question as to what “unattractive” women do to cope with the barrage of beauty-stereotypes, I think auntie em, Wendall Wagner, and istara made some rather insightful points. I just want to say something about those who feel and believe they are unattractive.

Everyone [well, 95% of us] spent puberty standing in front of mirrors saying “Well I’m not gonna shag me!”** for any number of reasons. I had the unique experience of being the only redhead in my class for all 15 years of my education up to the end of highschool. Regardless of what my parents and family told me, of what my classmates might have actually thought compared to what they said, of what random old women at the mall said, feeling and being so extraordinarily different from the entire freaking population made me feel horrible and ugly. [I actually dyed my hair black sophomore year.] I’m sure that feeling is familiar to anyone who’s been the only one of whatever at their school, ethnically, or physically.

Personally, I had a hard time figuring out that lots of people gave me shit and gave me the cold shoulder was because I was the 1-in-15 ADHD girl [back before it became fashionable] who manifested the condition outwardly, often angrily, sometimes violently. I got better; but kids have good memories for that kind of stuff. I also think it’s a good case of “actions speak louder than looks.” I had an ugly personality for so long, people didn’t want to notice when I got better.

As long as you find one non-family person who thinks you are beautiful, are interesting to talk with, and gives you that warm tingly feeling, that’s all the external validation you need in that department.

**[sub]thanks to eddie izzard[/sub]

As for the aging thing, I’m 21 and already have light laughlines, light browlines, and very light crowsfeet. Seriously. But I don’t care because I’m aging like my mother did and I can only hope I look as good as she does when I’m 65. [My bf has said he’d prolly be interested if she wasn’t married and 15 years younger, but he’s an odd duck]

44

I’m not sure what is meant by this. If you mean he’d feel himself perceived as more attractive physically, he’d be delusional; having money won’t make him less ugly. If you mean it makes him more of a catch, well maybe, but he’s got to consider the type of woman (or man) attracted to money and power… Really, the only thing that would make a physically unattractive person seem more attractive has already been mentioned- their favorable personality traits, and that goes a long long way.

45

Sometimes I wonder how people define beauty.

Is it the light in someone’s eyes, or the brightness of their smile? Is it the way they look at you and comprehend what you are thinking? Is it how much you love the way you feel when you are with them?

If it is how slim the person is, or how much they look like a model…male or female…then I wonder. I wonder about you, not them.

I think that true beauty is more than the size of your breasts or the shade of your hair or how slim your hips are. It is the light in your soul, the sound of your voice, the way you live your life, the things that passionately matter to you.

I have the great good luck to be a big breasted natural redhead who is not too thin but not too fat either. I have been thin, I have been plump, and I have never found a dearth of men who were interested in me in either state weightwise. It seems to matter more whether I am feeling like being together with someone than it seems to matter what I weigh.

I am not interested in any man who makes a decision to be interested in me or not for any physical reasons.

And furthermore, why are we having this discussion about women and not about men?

Just curious.

46

When I was younger, I coped by trying very hard to believe that I was stuck in the situation that auntie em described above, which was sometimes encouraging. As it turned out, when I got older it became clear that no, I really was unattractive.

Strangely, it doesn’t come up often. For the most part (due to the type of work I do and life I lead and everything else) I don’t have to think about it. Which is nice. When I do think about it, I do, not infrequently, fall into despair. I know I have other qualities that should make up for it - I also know, from experience, that most people will dismiss me due to the cover and never know that. And while I am proud of my accomplishments and do gain a sense of self worth from them - I would be lying if I said that it crossed over and made everything ok.

On the good side - I looked in the mirror earlier this week and realized that I no longer hate my body - I don’t like it (isn’t very good at all) but I no longer actively hate it. Perhaps as I get older, I will gain the same indifference to everything else and eventually come to terms with it.

47

“I’m Lisa, peppy, blonde and stunning.
Sophomore prom queen five years running.”

48

Hmmm. I really don’t know where I fall on the attractiveness spectrum. I’ve gotten compliments from other people, but I don’t think I’m all that great looking, especially when I’m standing next to my sister.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter, because I am going to be an engineer. I’ve had two summer internships at engineering firms, and at my most recent one I was the ONLY girl there. So I get to be pretty by default, simply because there’s nobody else to compare me to. Easy, isn’t it? :wink:

49

Hey, I’m unattractive and I’m married and have scads of friends and am quite popular everywhere I go.

It’s not my problem if other people find me unattractive. I don’t have to look at me. If anyone finds me really unattractive, then they can either avert their eyes or get used to it.

50

cite?

I know that this is accepted received wisdom in some circles, but what does it mean exactly?

If by “attractive” you mean “able to attract a spouse”, anecdotal evidence suggests that this is by no means true. There are millions of unattractive women who are married, with or without money and power.

And as someone said above, an unattractive man does not look better because he has more money. He might be a better catch, but the same definitely does hold true for women (plenty of “poor little rich girls” can attest to that).

But the real issue I have with your post is that you imply that attractiveness is somehow the be-all and end-all of life. To those of us with a sense of self that’s a little more than skin deep, that’s baloney.

Yes, the media tends to portray only beautiful women. That hardly equates to “everything around her she tells her that her value as a person is dependent on how physically attractive she is.”

What about intelligence? Does no experience (school, work, attempting to get into a debate on the SDMB) suggest that her value as a person is in part dependent on her intelligence?

What about compassion and morality? Doesn’t the way she is treated by friends and family, her religious upbringing and education, and numerous books, movies, T.V. shows, etc. suggest that her worth might be measured by how she treats others?

What about money? Doesn’t the media bombard us daily with the message that riches = success and happiness? That we should value ourselves based on our balance sheets?

Or is your view of the world so sexist that in your mind these attributes are only relevant for men?

Yes, American media portrayals of women lack diversity. But the situation isn’t quite as black and white as you paint it. There are great heroines and role models like Dame Judi Dench, Kathy Bates, Patrika Darbo, Cammryn Manheim, Rosie O’Donnell, Madeleine Albright, Janet Reno, Queen Elizabeth II, Penny Marshall, Whoopi Goldberg and many, many more who don’t fit the current attractiveness standard. More importantly, that earlier thread about media influence showed that girls’ perceptions of themselves were far more likely to be influenced by their parents (in particular their mothers) than by external factors.

I feel very, very sorry for any woman whose self-worth is solely determined by her appearance. I also feel sorry for any man who determines his own worth solely by his appearance, or by his wealth, his social status, the number of children he has fathered, or any other superficial measurement.

And finally, being attractive (in the overall sense) to the gender of your choice is a very nice thing. Finding that one person with whom you can share your life is wonderful. But even that is not the only thing on which a life can be judged.

51

You tell them, girl!

((((((((SV)))))))) ;j

Yay for Judi Dench & Whoopi.

52

I don’t know if i am unattractive or not. I am heavy girl. which used to bother me. but it doesn’t now. I am who i am regardless of my size… and if someone can’t look past that, then that is their loss, it truely is. Physical beauty fades. then again so does your mind, so there goes the brains are better than beauty theory… uh, anyway, I really think beauty in the eye of the beholder and in some cases the the beer holder. it goes both ways for both sexes.

53

Hmmm… I think you may need to re-read the OP (s) before you begin imputing sexism and an un-raised consciousness to my inquiry.

That society and prospective mates (both male and female) judge people by their physical appearance is not some whimsical, sexist notion on my part. It is a hard and pervasive fact of life, and to a certain extent, lack of good looks will shut people out from prospective high quality relationships. It’s easy to say that such relationships weren’t worthwhile anyway because the person judging on the cover and passing on the book is shallow and petty but this is not necessarily true. Beauty is a highly valued commodity and people are (fairly or unfairly) rewarded for possessing it and punished for lacking it and being unattractive.

My question was, given this unfair and unfortunate social reality, how does being unattractive (in a conventional western “beauty” sense) play out in terms of making a satisfactory life for yourself in the real world. The question was largely answered by the posts previous to yours in describing the various ways that lack of physical beauty was mitigated, made irrelevant or overcome in people’s day to day lives and pursuit of happiness.

I asked the question specifically for women because it seems that society focuses on the possession of beauty (or lack thereof) as being especially critical for female self worth and happiness. In reality, this is not necessarily true as you and numerous others pointed out.

Wendell Wagner also had an excellent point (which you reiterated) that the assumption that male attractiveness is significantly less important than female beauty, and in any case can be compensated for by wealth and status, is not necessarily a valid assumption.

The replies have been most heartfelt and enlightening and I thank everyone for their input to date.

54

First of all, thanks.

Second of all, I know exactly what you mean. People rarely comment on my physical beauty anymore. I get lots of “You have pretty hair” or “I can’t believe you don’t wear makeup; what great features you have”, but I haven’t heard a good, “Wow, you’re beautiful” since high school. I’m okay with that, however, because I get much better compliments. I get compliments like, “Only you would think of that!” or “My God, you’re funny!” or “You should definitely have kids. You’ll be a great mom.” (from a student). While I certainly appreciate the few physically-related compliments I get, they just don’t mean as much to me as the others based on more substantial parts of who I am. I feel bad for girls who never get complimented on anything but their bodies. In high school, I once had a boyfriend who said, “Shrew, you know what my two favorite things are about you?” To which I, of course, was expecting a very romantic answer. He replied, “Your hair and your rack.”

:rolleyes: so much for high school boys…

How do attractive women do it? How do they live never knowing why and even whether or not they are loved? For what things are they appreciated? Will they still be loved when the beauty fades? Will they have to turn to plastic surgery to desperately cling to the only shred of an identity they have? I often wonder if that isn’t what plagued women like Marilyn Monroe, Carrie Otis, Elizabeth Taylor, and Gia? Living a life based on physical beauty seems to me to be a fate far worse than anyone deserves.

55

Not all attractive women are shallow. Granted, many are, since they can get away without doing much else. There are those who aren’t. Not only are they attractive physically, they have a great character and are erudite.

On the flip side, women who are physically unattractive tend to develop their inner self more to compensate. Furthermore, women who do not have the what I call “still image beauty” can still be physically attractive because the way the carry themselves. That’s before character is taken into account.

56

I’ve been on this board for over two years now and while I have read lots of amusing and interesting posts things rarely pop my eyes open anymore. Your post is an exception.

You are exactly and precisely right and I have never really grasped as a concrete and clearly focused idea that differential (ie “still image” beauty vs “carry themselves” beauty) until you illustrated it with your concise and beautifully conceptuallized example. l will of course steal this concept and use it in future conversations. Thank you!

57

Yes, living a life based on physical beauty is a bad thing. Next topic:

Everything else you posted to this thread I found very articulate and insightful. The quote above, however, troubles me. Like Urban Ranger said, not all attractive women are shallow. Please forgive this forray into EgoLand, but I consider myself to be fairly pretty, rather intelligent, and quite fun to be around; Attractive by all definitions offered up so far. I’ve been complemented on my appearance, among other things, and it’s nice people think so, but I don’t get off on it. It’s not my only source of validation about myself. I’m more concerned about passing my classes and getting favorable critiques from my studio professors.

I’m pretty sure I know when someone isn’t interested what’s inside my mind so much as what’s between my legs. Those kind of people usually don’t want to talk with me, aren’t interested in what I want to do, only talk about things people have, things they want to have, how they compare to other people who have more or less.

Most beauty does not fade but merely changes. Here’s why: I am a virtual copy of my mother. She is 65 and does not have a “cover model” appearance. She has lines and I’m beginning to get lines. We are both short and small chested and covered in freckles. She used to “stunning,” slender with a 20-inch waist, but three children expanded that waist. My mother is still beautiful the way Judi Dench, Olympia Dukkakas[sp?], and Meryl Streep are. Being Beautiful is being happy with they way you are. If my mother wore clothes too young for her, caked on the makeup, had oodles of plastic surgery, dyed her hair too dark, then she would not be beautiful. If I look and feel half as good as my mom when I hit 65, I’ll be lucky.

You should have asked how shallow people handle aging and the uncertaintly of their relationships. Shallow is far from equal to Attractive. Shallow is a subset of Attractive.

58

Of course, just like not all unattractive women are deep and of substance.

Your mother sounds lovely. I could not agree more that true beauty is found in the comfort of one’s own skin. (I actually have a tattoo that states, “Beauty is truth”, of course from Ode on a Grecian Urn.) For the sake of this thread, however, I believe we are defining beauty as “physical beauty”, which of course is a misnomer but happens to work within the context of this conversation.

I see your point, and yes I did focus on the shallow faction of women who are physically attractive, but aging is common to shallow people and nonshallow people alike. I am curious how ANY once (physically) attractive woman deals with aging and the loss of “physical beauty” in the still-image variety of beauty. You and I are certainly capable of seeing beauty in Dame Judi Dench, Hillary Clinton, and Meryl Streep. Hell, I even think Janet Reno is beautiful. But in the world’s eyes, beauty fades with age for women. Many women are retaining their physical beauty longer these days with good health (Madonna, Cybill Shepherd, Bo Derek), but I would still love to know what aging has been like for them, women who I would hope are women of character. There’s a piece of dialogue from the movie The Mirror Has Two Faces between Streisand and Bacall that illustrates some of what makes me curious (and please forgive the paraphrasing):

Streisand: What was it like?
Bacall: What was what like?
Streisand: Being beautiful.
Bacall: I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Streisand: No, I’m serious. Looking at yourself in the mirror with such admiration…such appreciation.
Bacall: (wistfully) It was wonderful.
Streisand: Yeah.

And to be honest (and I cringe when I say this, but I still think it’s true), if you’ve never been unattractive, I’m not sure you can really understand what it’s like. You become this invisible fixture in society. Forming relationships becomes much harder than it was before. Men only speak to you if they have to, after they’ve listened to you for a while, or if they’ve heard good things about you. You suddenly become the physical manifestion of what you do. People see you as your actions and your thoughts instead of what you look like. This is an actual conversation I had last night at a party:

“Oh, Shrew, I want you to meet someone. This is Sue, doesn’t Sue look gorgeous for her age? Would you believe she’s almost 50?”
“Sue, this is Shrew. She teaches school and used to dance with us.”

I was defined by my actions, and poor Sue was simply how she looked.

Of course this is all very subjective, and we’re dealing heavily in stereotypes, but I simply don’t see that being physically attractive does any woman any good in the larger scheme of building her character and feeding her soul. As you stated earlier, a woman is beautiful when she is comfortable being who she is, and that should really be enough.

59

That’s IT. That is SO it.

I’ve never (that I can recall) been described by my appearance. I am usually described as “Yosemitebabe, a potter and artist.”

I prefer it this way. This will be the way I am described when I am old (as long as I keep creating art and making pottery!). :wink:

I also want to echo what others have said about the subjectivity of attractiveness. I usually feel like an ugly leper, but in reality, I’m not that bad. On a good day, I can be “cute”. There have actually been days where I wasn’t hideous at all.

Most people are like this. Few people are really unattractive to everyone. Sometimes it just takes a little “makeover”, usually it’s more about getting to know a person, and realizing how attractive they really are. Many people’s attractiveness is subtle, not obvious. It’s there, and it’s real, but it takes a bit of time to see.

I know there have been times that I have been treated as if I was attractive. (I suspect that were a few auto mechanics who gave me a good deal on car repairs because they liked my looks.) There have been people who have seen me as attractive, and have told me so. But it takes a lot of convincing for me to believe that they really see me this way, because the message that I am an ugly toad has been so drummed into my head (since early teenhood) that this overrides everything. I can’t even appreciate the times I’ve been treated in a flattering way, because it never occurs to me that I could be considered attractive by anyone else. Once a hideous leper, always a hideous leper. That’s the reality for many of us.

60

I think he was refering to real beauty - i.e. women that are beautiful when they are not ‘fixed up’ the girl in the car was not one.

‘fixing’ up is hiding ugliness, why did you even mention it? if a woman is ugly before being ‘fixed up’ then afterwards she is just an ugly woman who is hiding her ugliness. fixing up doesn’t make someone beautiful, it just makes them not look like themselves. to illustrate my point - if an ugly woman puts on a cindy craford mask, is she beautiful? no she’s just an ugly woman with a mask on. ‘fixing up’ is a more deceptive version of putting a mask on.