A 20% tip, a 20% “service charge” or 20% higher prices on all menu items. Why does it make any difference to you as the customer? You’re not going to pay less in a “non-tipping” system. Your bill is going to be higher. In the end, you’re going to pay the same amount.
With a tipping system, you at least have the ability to reduce your bill when the service is horrible and your server has more of an incentive to be courteous and competent. The service industry in the United States is hands-down better than any “non-tipping” system. The service is noticeably better. If you can’t afford the service, then take your food to-go. Don’t use a service and then complain about the method or mechanism of payment.
I though service was uniformly horrible in the US.
I’m confused by this. If you meant your feelings about people who unilaterally opt out of tipping, that’s one thing, but what’s wrong with resenting a system that we seem to keep out of inertia, even though it is basically exploitative for workers and doesn’t seem to improve service for customers?
From this site
Minimum Wages for Tipped Employees | U.S. Department of Labor (dol.gov)
2003-Minimum wage for servers before tipping was $2.13. Eighteen years later, it is now…$2.13.
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I like to leave a tip because I like to pay people who provide a service for me. I’ve worked in a bar, and though I didn’t get tipped directly a portion of my pay was from tip-out. I’m sympathetic to people in the industry and still have a lot of friends who work in bars and restaurants. I usually tip 25% and have been doing more in the pandemic.
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I’m aware that there are people who resent having to pay people to do work. Working in the industry will teach you that, if you were naive about it before. Are you aware that if tipping went away, menu prices would rise and you’d be out the same amount of money?
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I’d be fine if the US worked on a European model. But we don’t. Oddly a number of my bartender friends enjoy the hustle, and prefer this version. Not all of them, but some.
I’m sure some people do not - it’s a big country, after all - but I imagine everyone posting in this thread understands this.
Then what’s the problem? If you pay $18 on a $15 dollar bill, how are you worse off than if you paid $18 on an $18 dollar bill?
Do you want me to repeat everything I’ve already said in this thread?
No.I thought I was replying directly to the OP, but I hit the wrong reply button. I agree that a European system of paying tipped employees directly might be more fair, and said that in my first post. But, I’ll repeat myself and say that I’ve met a number of bartenders who like the current system.
The fundamental problem is any such scheme, even raising their wage to $15 an hour, will see them take a huge cut in total income if they don’t get tips.
I can’t understand people thinking this is going to be accepted by anyone.
Owners get a kick back, of untraceable cash, with the current system. If tips disappear they are going to take a big hit too.
Now, imagine for a second someone decides it’s better for THEM, if the current pay system in YOUR small business should be changed up…resulting in both owners and workers losing substantial income, you gonna sign up for that? Your crew gonna get on board?
Service is a huge and growing segment of the economy. Trying to alter the income stream, for both parties, just to satisfy a few people.
You’re effectively arguing for servers and owners to make less money, abandon a system that works for them, because that would be better for you. How can you not see how flawed such an idea is?
Anyone else clearly working hard for a living, you’d be willing to advocate openly get LESS income, for the same work?
You’ll have to explain why both the owners and the servers are making less money under a European model than the current American model. Is it because people are eating out less because they are spooked by higher prices, or because they are paying taxes on more revenue? It seems odd if you are advocating for the continuation of tax evasion.
There will always be assholes who don’t tip, or under-tip. The current system just results in normal people subsidizing them. In the European system, servers and owners can’t get stiffed by cheapskates. I feel like that’s a definite positive that people in this thread haven’t really brought up yet.
As well, the cultural baggage of tipping flows between places with lower tipped wages and across-the-board minimum wages. In Canada, servers get paid minimum wage ($15/hr where I live), yet there is a lot of social pressure to tip 15-20% because of the influence of America. This results in servers getting paid way more than their back-of-house staff, which people can debate whether this is fair or not. My wife was a server for several years and actually lamented that she thought servers made too much money where she worked - they made significantly more than either the kitchen staff or front line managers (probably around 1.5x as much, making around $30-35/hr after tips) and she felt kitchen staff had a much harder job than her (obviously, this will vary a lot from restaurant to restaurant). I don’t know if this discrepancy between back-of-house and front-of-house compensation varies as drastically in places with different tipped minimum wages.
I already answered this in part in my second post. Please see my comments below.
I gave some idea of why in my previous post. Let me expound. The reasons why I would rather pay 20% higher prices on the menu and no tip than keep current prices and still be expected to tip or have a service charge are:
-It’s more intellectually honest. I don’t want to be quoted a lower price that I may, by law, pay and leave, but for me and the server to both know that if I don’t volunteer 20% more, I am a cheapskate shortchanging him/her. As long as this system of legally voluntary but socially obligatory tips exist, there will be this lingering wish to only pay the quoted price on the bill. Let’s just quote the real price and be done with it.
-I feel that consumers should be entitled to a final price. I don’t pay separately for the production, stocking, and delivery of what I buy in the supermarket. Why should I have to do math every time I go to a sit-down restaurant or other service industry place? I’m your customer, not your accountant. The earlier in the transaction I, the consumer see the total amount I’ll be paying, the better. As I said above, I also think retailers should be required by law to include sales tax in their price quotes (currently, they are required to do so in Europe, but not in North America, at least in those jurisdictions on those continents that I am familiar with). As a consumer, I don’t give a ripe fuck what amount of my price is “not” tax. That information is absolutely useless to me. It’s just a trick calculated to make the price look lower than it actually is.
-Your quote of 20% is not a clear-cut no-brainer. The exact percentage you are supposed to give is set by social standards and etiquette experts and can vary; it has gone UP (10% used to be perfectly OK. Now some people say 15% is tolerable while others say you are a jerk if you don’t give at least 20% and should absolutely give 25% if you get excellent service). Can the amount go up again? By replacing tipping with final higher menu prices, you are getting rid of all dillemmas on this matter and, when prices do go up again, this will at least be decided by accountants on a rational level by such factors as cost of living, inflation, and cost of raw materials, not by guilt-tripping waiters, etiquette experts, or restaurant patrons one-upping each other by giving still greater and greater tips.
-I resent having responsibility for ensuring that my server is decently paid downloaded to me, the customer, where that should be the employer’s job. No one expects me to worry about whether the helpful shop assistant whom no one tips can feed her family, or whether the guy standing at the counter at McDonalds who earns minimum wage and is forbidden from taking any tips is paid well. Ergo, I shouldn’t be placed into a position where I bear responsibility for ensuring that a waiter (or any other service provider under employment) is decently paid. The employer, on the other hand, should be held responsible for that.
Why shouldn’t I complain about the method or mechanism of payment when using a service? I have every right to call people out on things I dislike. I don’t have to accept everything that society does. Coments such as yours are an impediment to progress. As for the service being “noticeably better”, I don’t think that the service in Europe, for example, is inadequate on the whole in any way. I would be glad to lose the ability to “punish” a bad server by not tipping them in exchange for not having to tip even a good server (in the case of the bad server, I would complain to them personally, and if they were not responsive to my complaint, would complain to their manager). BTW, I don’t expect “excellent” service. I expect “adequate” service. I don’t need (or want) any of the following examples of “excellent service”: 1) smiles that are not heartfelt 2) constantly checking to see if everything is OK 3) trying to upsell me in any way. You get the point…
If you can’t afford to tip, you can’t afford the food.
This is only an issue because it’s a U.S. issue. It’s a custom that arose organically and it’s hurting anyone. The reason I like to travel is to experience customs that are organic to the area/culture and aren’t hurting anyone. Maybe it isn’t the coolest custom, but it’s interesting. A bamboo tattoo isn’t inherently better than one from a tattoo gun but it’s interesting.
Seems like a weird thing to get all riled up over, but you do you.
One thing though. As long as you tip adequately, no one behind the bar is going to care that you didn’t tip extravagantly. Extravagant tips are nice, but not expected. Even if you tip poorly or not at all, the staff is going to still be polite, despite all the paranoid fantasies about food spitting that I’ve read on this board. They might complain amongst themselves after closing time, but that will be the most of it. So don’t worry abuot being “One upped.”
Yeah, I’m sort of confused by this, too. Most of the “eliminate the tips” proposals I’ve seen have proposed a “service fee” in lieu of the tip, which is 20-25% of the bill… which is around the average tip - if not a tad generous - anyway. So how do both the owners and servers end up with less money? Unless you are hypothesizing less overall demand or tax evasion…
It’s amusing how apparently it’s hard math to figure out 20% of something.
Or even 15%.
“a few questions in good faith”
(snicker)
Them last two questions are kinda loaded, Mr. OP. Do you design push polls for a living?
I tolerate tipping in restaurants. It’s the system for the foreseeable future and I can’t cop a big resentment over it. The only good part is that on the rare occasions when service is really good, or even rarer instances when it’s godawful, I can leave feedback via tip. Much better than filling out a #£π!# survey.
That may be the theory. What it actually correlates with is the type of place that they work at and the whims of the people who come in that day.
If you think you’re buying the waiter’s friendship, you’re wrong. Try being professionally courteous, not giving them a hard time, and thanking them for their hard work – that might work. A high tipper can be an obnoxious customer. The boss will tell the waiters that they have to smile at the customer anyway, or be fired.
Under the current system, of course, stiffing the waiter means they don’t get their pay. So keep tipping. But don’t think your cash is buying a “bond”.
I didn’t get the impression that kayaker thought tipping was creating a personal friendship, just a valued-customer-and-valued-employee bond. Yes, if you’re a “regular” at an establishment who’s well-behaved and generous with tips, you do often get a bit of VIP treatment from servers who know you, and what’s wrong with that?
Of course it would be creepy and exploitative to try to parlay that into a simulation of genuine intimacy with somebody who’s getting paid to be nice to you and cater to your wishes. But a regular customer and a server can have a bond of mutual generosity without pretending that it’s about personal intimacy.